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Re: Capsize kills tourist [Re: Buccaneer] #69974
03/24/06 08:17 AM
03/24/06 08:17 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
F
fin. Offline
Carpal Tunnel
fin.  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
Quote
It’s nice you guys can find a little something humorous here.

Maybe if you had a young child of your own you’d be more curious as to how she got so entrapped, and how the fatality could have been prevented.



If I had a young child, I would have been parenting that child and not have left the responsibility to others.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Capsize kills tourist [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #69975
03/24/06 08:27 AM
03/24/06 08:27 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Okay, how about a soda can sized compressed air cylinder with mouthpiece similar to what helicopter pilots and some scuba rescue folk use?

Mounted somewhere on the body (preferably out of the way but within easy access to a distressed person), this would allow the person to at least have 1 -2 minutes of extra air to calm down and figure out a way to get un-tangled (regardless of which trapeze system they are using).

Even 30 seconds of extra air can work wonders.

How about streamlining the whole boat to minimize the risk of entanglement? Internally run control lines come to mind.

A quick release system wouldn't have to undo the entire harness (in the case of a full harness), but just the spreader bar in the case of the hook system. I'm not sure what would catch on the ball system.

The lycra stretch "rashers" that go over all the person's sailing equipment would also tend to reduce the likelihood of something tangling up on the sailor.

Most of all - adult or competent sailor supervision when sailing with small children or those not used to the "dangers" of sailing.

I know that as an 11 year old, I was not allowed to take our sunfish (or H17 with my brother) out unsupervised until I was able to tip it over and right it myself several times in various conditions.

Of course, once we found out it was fun to flip those things over, we didn't get much sailing done on light air days. More of the following situation played out:

(2 sunfish in lake, small triangle race course, light winds)

- Boat 1 approaches boat 2 prior to "start sequence" (someone saying "Go")
- Boat 1 announces "You can't even sail that thing!" (or some similar smack talk)
- Boat 2 responds "STAY AWAY FROM ME, MAN"
- Boat 1 driver sails astride boat 2, jumps to boat 2, stands up and grabs mast, hikes out and dumps boat 2
- Boat 2 driver grabs Boat 1 (currently unattended) and does the same
- First boat to right usually wins race.

It took me a few more years of actual racing to realize that sailboat racing is a game of tactics, not "last boat upright gets the lead" (well, that is still the case in heavy wind, but not because the skipper swam over and dumped the competitor's boat).

But still, there was a sort of twisted enjoyment in the "australian rules/Full contact" sailing....

Good times..


Jay

Re: Capsize kills tourist [Re: fin.] #69976
03/24/06 08:30 AM
03/24/06 08:30 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,690
Seabrook, TX
DougSnell Offline
Pooh-Bah
DougSnell  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,690
Seabrook, TX
I think we all need to start carrying a knife with a serrated edge that will cut metal. To hell with ruining the sails or rigging it your going to die!!

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
www.tcdyc.com

Re: Capsize kills tourist [Re: DougSnell] #69977
03/24/06 08:40 AM
03/24/06 08:40 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
I believe the knife is the best option and always carry one.

If traped, don't be shy...... Straight through the trampaline.


Re: Capsize kills tourist [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #69978
03/24/06 08:44 AM
03/24/06 08:44 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
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fin. Offline
Carpal Tunnel
fin.  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
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Quote
I believe the knife is the best option and always carry one.

If traped, don't be shy...... Straight through the trampaline.


Straight blade would be best. But, I'm more concerned about being run down by a jet-ski or similar craft.

Any comments?

Last edited by Tikipete; 03/24/06 08:46 AM.
Re: Capsize kills tourist [Re: fin.] #69979
03/24/06 08:51 AM
03/24/06 08:51 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,690
Seabrook, TX
DougSnell Offline
Pooh-Bah
DougSnell  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,690
Seabrook, TX
Pete:

I believe you need a straight one side serrated the other so you can cut shrouds or what ever wire you hook on. Thinking of getting a scuba diver type to attach to leg. What is latest on Blade?

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
www.tcdyc.com

Re: Capsize kills tourist [Re: fin.] #69980
03/24/06 08:52 AM
03/24/06 08:52 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
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Naples, FL
Quote


Straight blade would be best. But, I'm more concerned about being run down by a jet-ski or similar craft.

Any comments?


Two words:
Glock
H&K

Both can fire in marine environments. You'd be doing us a favor, too.... No bag limits on jet-skis last I checked...


Jay

Re: Capsize kills tourist [Re: waterbug_wpb] #69981
03/24/06 08:56 AM
03/24/06 08:56 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,690
Seabrook, TX
DougSnell Offline
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DougSnell  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,690
Seabrook, TX
Pete:

Take a cooler filled with ice balloons and a water balloon sling shot. A few of these upside the head will get rid of the problem REAL fast and target practice is FUN.

Doug

Re: Capsize kills tourist [Re: DougSnell] #69982
03/24/06 08:58 AM
03/24/06 08:58 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
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fin. Offline
Carpal Tunnel
fin.  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
It's a crazy world, I'm seriously considering the firearms option; the water balloon doesn't have enough stopping power.

Re: Capsize kills tourist [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #69983
03/24/06 08:59 AM
03/24/06 08:59 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,074
Northfield,NH USA
bullswan Offline
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bullswan  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2005
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Northfield,NH USA
Quote
I believe the knife is the best option and always carry one.

If traped, don't be shy...... Straight through the trampaline.


I carry a knife as well but....... The idea of being under water with someone panicky and with all the grabbing at you and pulling I'm not convinced I want a razor-sharp utensil slashing around at whatever is holding them down. I think it would be fine for me to use if I was the one trapped but I can't see releasing anyone else in panic mode.

Do you think the ball and socket and the mast float ball are about the best you can do to keep people afloat beyond safety floatation vests (of course)?

Greg


The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised. - George Will
"It's not that liberals aren't smart, it's just that so much of what they know isn't so" -Ronald Reagan
Re: Capsize kills tourist [Re: fin.] #69984
03/24/06 09:01 AM
03/24/06 09:01 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
pbisesi Offline
enthusiast
pbisesi  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
I will be sailing with my 11 year old daughter this season. I have bought the ball and key system, I carry a good knife on me, one in her life jacket and one in the tool bag with a hand held cable cutter. You have a whole new appriciation for safety when you sail with a kid. If it blows real hard I have her stay on the boat.
The regatta organizers should also take note. Have every chase/safety volunteer carry a knife and hand held cable cutter. The fastest boat can carry a large cable cutter. All must have good radios. When I have run an event I issue all the equipment to the chase boats if they don't have it and give instruction to get two heads above water regardless of what has to be cut including the sailor, they can be stiched up. You can not un drown someone.

Attached Files
70711-patsarahmc105.jpg (39 downloads)

Pat Bisesi Fleet 204
Re: Capsize kills tourist [Re: bullswan] #69985
03/24/06 09:07 AM
03/24/06 09:07 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
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fin. Offline
Carpal Tunnel
fin.  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
Quote
Quote
I believe the knife is the best option and always carry one.

If traped, don't be shy...... Straight through the trampaline.


I carry a knife as well but....... The idea of being under water with someone panicky and with all the grabbing at you and pulling I'm not convinced I want a razor-sharp utensil slashing around at whatever is holding them down. I think it would be fine for me to use if I was the one trapped but I can't see releasing anyone else in panic mode.

Do you think the ball and socket and the mast float ball are about the best you can do to keep people afloat beyond safety floatation vests (of course)?

Greg


A vest can be a definite liability. Once, a petite, very busty lady fell off her husbands boat while racing. Because of her figure, she had the vest fitted loosely. She hit the water with enough force that vest floated up over her head, leaving the vest attached but not providing bouyancy. She was trapped and drowning INSIDE THE VEST!!

She was rescued by the crew of the next boat rounding the mark!!

The best safety device,IMO, is attitude. Always expect something to happen and be prepared to react i.e. never get caught off guard! Relaxed awareness, like driving.

Re: Capsize kills tourist [Re: fin.] #69986
03/24/06 09:16 AM
03/24/06 09:16 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,690
Seabrook, TX
DougSnell Offline
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DougSnell  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,690
Seabrook, TX
Guys:

I know we all hate vest that gives us the weird tan lines. But I always wear one unless the wind is 5 or less. I have had two experiences where they where life savers. Once I was hit in the head by by the boom on an unplanned jibe and the other the trap line broke while on the wire and got dumped. There will be that weird time when you are not always holding on to the mainsheet. I would rather be uncomfortable than have to tread water for a long time.

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
www.tcdyc.com

Re: Capsize kills tourist [Re: pbisesi] #69987
03/24/06 10:13 AM
03/24/06 10:13 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Hi Pat

That is outstanding advice... I never even thought about equiping the chase boats with cable cutters.

Thank you!

Mark


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Capsize kills tourist [Re: fin.] #69988
03/24/06 10:14 AM
03/24/06 10:14 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 55
Los Angeles, CA
chrisun Offline
journeyman
chrisun  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 55
Los Angeles, CA
Quote
It's a crazy world, I'm seriously considering the firearms option; the water balloon doesn't have enough stopping power.


I think he said ice balloon...


C-Class USA75
Re: Capsize kills tourist [Re: waterbug_wpb] #69989
03/24/06 10:37 AM
03/24/06 10:37 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 887
Crofton, MD
Chris9 Offline
old hand
Chris9  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 887
Crofton, MD
Prefer Sig-Sauer to the glock, but that just personal preference.

PFDs equiped with dive knifes.


Chris Allen
Nacra 20 Gertie
www.wrcra.org
Re: Capsize kills tourist [Re: Chris9] #69990
03/24/06 10:57 AM
03/24/06 10:57 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
pbisesi Offline
enthusiast
pbisesi  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
The other thing I would add is that the race committe should let everyone know at the skippers meeting on a windy day that redress will be generously granted to those who stop to help others.
I was the recipient of this at the 2003 nationals. I flipped real hard along with most of the fleet. I righted to boat and continued to A. There were 4 boats over in a group and I stopped until all were accounted for. I went in after that and was told I was granted redress for lending assistance ( I didn't ask). A chase boat had reported it. When there is half the fleet over we have to watch out for each other. 3 or 4 chase boats can't get to everyone.

There are 4 pre-teens already registed in A fleet for the Madcatter with many more you to come.
Making sure they have fun and stay safe is huge.
Madcatter Kids: All receive a trophy for competing.

Attached Files
70728-DSC_5109.jpg (33 downloads)

Pat Bisesi Fleet 204
Re: Capsize kills tourist [Re: bullswan] #69991
03/24/06 11:00 AM
03/24/06 11:00 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
I've been quite pleased with the Benchmade Rescue Hook. After having a dive knife release itself from it's holster twice (once when climbing to the bottom of a turtled trampoline), I decided that it was no longer an acceptable solution. I then found these and consider them much safer and as quick, or quicker, to operate than an open blade.



Jake Kohl
Re: Capsize kills tourist [Re: Chris9] #69992
03/24/06 11:00 AM
03/24/06 11:00 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 55
Los Angeles, CA
chrisun Offline
journeyman
chrisun  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 55
Los Angeles, CA
Quote
Prefer Sig-Sauer to the glock, but that just personal preference.


Yeah, but 'you got Sig Sauer money?!'


C-Class USA75
Re: Capsize kills tourist [Re: Chris9] #69993
03/24/06 11:01 AM
03/24/06 11:01 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
MauganN20 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
MauganN20  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
Sometimes people at regattas look at me funny because I've never really taken off all the crap that I have to strap to it for the Tybee, but theres a rather sizeable diving knife on there that mounted right on my left chest area that simple click in place, pull down system. I've not had to use it yet, thankfully, but I've practiced cutting lines while holding my breath underwater. Its harder than you think, especially if you're panicing.

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