Announcements
New Discussions
New England 100 2019: 30th Anniversary!!!
by brucat. 11/13/19 08:04 PM
2020, The Year of The Cat
by dave mosley. 11/13/19 10:11 AM
Polar Diagrams for beach catamarans?
by Damon Linkous. 11/03/19 04:21 PM
Things to do and not to do flying a spin
by rehmbo. 10/29/19 03:59 AM
Cleaning corner castings
by extremebias. 10/18/19 03:18 PM
What are EPO rudders?
by chevy43. 10/17/19 12:37 AM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Teflon washers destroyed #71473
04/05/06 05:04 AM
04/05/06 05:04 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 53
The Netherlands, Europe
flying_dutchman Offline OP
journeyman
flying_dutchman  Offline OP
journeyman

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 53
The Netherlands, Europe
When preparing my Hobie 16 I remembered the Teflon washers always come out damaged and distorted when removing the mast. Now I discovered why: The thread end section of the dolphin striker bar is 2-3 mm above the bottom where the mast fits in. So no nice ball & cup: the mast is actually resting on this bar-end only ( 12 mm diameter) and can move rather free instead of being fixed.
Tried to remove the dolphin striker but it looks like I have to take the whole trampoline apart.
Grinding inside looks alsmost impossible.
My best guess would be making a washer with a hole in the middle (brass-copper??)
Anybody some experience or other/better solutions?

Thanks from still far to cold Europe

Eddie
Hobie 16 # 99173


Happy sailing from The Netherlands!

Eddie

Hobie 16 (1992) # 99173 & CT11 - with spi
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Teflon washers destroyed [Re: flying_dutchman] #71474
04/05/06 10:19 AM
04/05/06 10:19 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
veteran
mmiller  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
The step casting is threaded onto the post. You can drill out the rivets, un-screw the step one turn and re-rivet onto the crossbar. You do not need to dis-assemble the frame to do the job. Take a look at this step casting replacement thread for more information...

http://www.hobiecat.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=2990

An article in the Hobie Class News:

http://www.hobiecat.com/hobieclass/eHCA_News01_02-05.pdf

Also think about the new "chip keeper" modification to hold the chip in...

http://www.hobiecat.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=3150


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Teflon washers destroyed [Re: mmiller] #71475
04/05/06 05:15 PM
04/05/06 05:15 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 53
The Netherlands, Europe
flying_dutchman Offline OP
journeyman
flying_dutchman  Offline OP
journeyman

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 53
The Netherlands, Europe
Thanks Matt!
You gave me a new approach to my problem. Most likely however I'm going to face some problems with the thread. My Hobie 16 is 14 years now - all seaside and last few years salt lake (= even worse !!). So corrosion is absolutely present. Probably have to replace the base ...
Thanks once again for fast and detailed information

Eddie
Hobby 16 #99173


Happy sailing from The Netherlands!

Eddie

Hobie 16 (1992) # 99173 & CT11 - with spi
Re: Teflon washers destroyed [Re: flying_dutchman] #71476
04/05/06 05:33 PM
04/05/06 05:33 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacific....
hobie1616 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
hobie1616  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacific....
Quote
Probably have to replace the base ...
That's a good idea anyway. The rotation stops get pretty beat up after a couple of years of use.


US Sail Level 2 Instructor
US Sail Level 3 Coach
Re: Teflon washers destroyed [Re: hobie1616] #71477
04/09/06 03:29 PM
04/09/06 03:29 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 66
Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
ReefedOne Offline
journeyman
ReefedOne  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 66
Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
I don't want to cause a collapse of the time-space continuum which ends all life in the universe, but is there some EARTHLY reason why Hobie can't go with the much more practical Prindle (half-ball) or Nacra (full-ball) systems? Surely someone makes such a retro-fit kit? WTF?

How many fun times have been ruined by the "my kingdom for a Teflon wafer" situations? I've had at least one.

Re: Teflon washers destroyed [Re: ReefedOne] #71478
04/09/06 05:42 PM
04/09/06 05:42 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 471
NC
D
drbinkle Offline
addict
drbinkle  Offline
addict
D

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 471
NC
Last time I checked teflon washers were still cheaper than full or half balls

Re: Teflon washers destroyed [Re: ReefedOne] #71479
04/09/06 08:03 PM
04/09/06 08:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
veteran
mmiller  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
Quote
why Hobie can't go with the much more practical Prindle (half-ball) or Nacra (full-ball) systems?


Those are not Nacra / Prindle innovations... but, Hobie has used mast step ball systems over the years on many models. We still do. I think the first was maybe the Monocat in the 70's?

Well, it was considered for the 16, but class rules and keeping it as one-design as possible won. Also, Hobie Cat USA (Dan Ketterman actually) came up with the "chip keeper". We also redesigned the stop thickness and refined the angles. We now see much less wear on all parts. We tested this out at the 2004 Hobie 16 Worlds. Never replaced a chip and saw very little wear to the stops. All in demanding conditions and time on the water that equaled a years use in just 10 days of heavy racing. We don't need no stinking balls!


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Teflon washers destroyed [Re: mmiller] #71480
04/10/06 07:45 AM
04/10/06 07:45 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 306
St. Louis, MO
hobienick Offline
enthusiast
hobienick  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 306
St. Louis, MO
I still have my bag of spare chips I took with me everywhere. Never had a problem. I also did the chip keeper thing after my first time on the water so I wouldn't loose them while trailering. I learn quickly.


Nick

Current Boat
Looking for one

Previous Boats
'84 H16
'82 H18 Magnum
'74 Pearson 30
St. Louis, MO
Re: Teflon washers destroyed [Re: hobienick] #71481
04/10/06 04:49 PM
04/10/06 04:49 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 53
The Netherlands, Europe
flying_dutchman Offline OP
journeyman
flying_dutchman  Offline OP
journeyman

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 53
The Netherlands, Europe
Checked my mastbase last weekend. With the new ideas from the forum I wanted to investigate matter. Surely my mastbase doesn't look nice on the inside . Looked at some other H16 at our club: they look far better - but they are seldom used...
Removing the popnails won't be a problem but due to the intensive corrosion I have serious doubts about being able to remove the base from the bar . I will surely need to find a way to withstand the torque when trying to remove the base. And most likely risk damaging the thread as well...
Should I use a disk-grinder to cut base into 2 pieces???
For the moment I use a plastic bottlecap. Got a golfball somewhere but found out it was solid !!!! And more rubber than plastic so won't work at all I'm afraid.
Just a crazy idea: any change of improving the base internally with any kind of 2-component metal or synthetics?? I really want to start sailing again (adicted???)

Good winds and happy Easter

Eddie
Hobie 16 # 99173


Happy sailing from The Netherlands!

Eddie

Hobie 16 (1992) # 99173 & CT11 - with spi
Re: Teflon washers destroyed [Re: flying_dutchman] #71482
04/10/06 07:21 PM
04/10/06 07:21 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
veteran
mmiller  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
Semantics...

The casting on the crossbar is called "Step Casting" The mast base is the casting on the base of the mast.

If you cannot unthread the step casting from the post, you will have to cut it. I used a hack saw in a vertical direction,. I then wedged a chisel in and hit it with a hammer it. That seems to open it up a bit to break it free to turn.


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Teflon washers destroyed [Re: mmiller] #71483
04/11/06 04:01 PM
04/11/06 04:01 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 66
Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
ReefedOne Offline
journeyman
ReefedOne  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 66
Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Last time I checked teflon washers were still cheaper than full or half balls

Uhh... yeah... which is not... really... an issue because:
a) The balls last approximately FOREVER; and
b) They're THREADED onto the ds support rod... you can trailer those puppies at 100 mph, or de-step your mast in a hurricane, and they're GOING NOWHERE.


Quote
Quote
why Hobie can't go with the much more practical Prindle (half-ball) or Nacra (full-ball) systems?


Those are not Nacra / Prindle innovations... but, Hobie has used mast step ball systems over the years on many models. We still do. I think the first was maybe the Monocat in the 70's?


I know... I should've said Prindle-STYLE and Nacra-STYLE systems... to be sure those guys did not invent the ball-and-socket joint--LOL. On that same note, however, there's no patent protection that prevents widespread adoption... or retrofitting.

Just like Hobie's tiller-operated rudder raising system was used in one form or another on swing-keel monohulls for decades (centuries?) before the H-14... if Mr. Alter had any patents on that, I'm sure they only covered the minutae of the cam mechanism, etc.

Quote
Well, it was considered for the 16, but class rules and keeping it as one-design as possible won.


I'm not a class-racer, but I fail to see how the mast bearing being male or female confers any unfair speed advantage on the water. Really just an onshore convenience matter... unless keeping your rivals out of the race is a valid strategy, LOL!... my bad. Perhaps Hobie/Coleman/et al are hooked on the recurring revenue from Teflon wafer sales?

Re: Teflon washers destroyed [Re: ReefedOne] #71484
04/11/06 04:16 PM
04/11/06 04:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
veteran
mmiller  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
The point was made that the chips falling out and wearing badly has been highly improved by the "chip keeper" design. We really don't want to get into a discussion about making major changes to the design though. That is a hornets nest. Basically, the boat is intended to be one design. That means you change as little as possible. Just changing the cup to a ball on a post changes the goemetry of the rig by placing the pivot point higher. That there is enough to nix the idea.


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Teflon washers destroyed [Re: ReefedOne] #71485
04/11/06 09:14 PM
04/11/06 09:14 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 471
NC
D
drbinkle Offline
addict
drbinkle  Offline
addict
D

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 471
NC
Quote
Uhh... yeah... which is not... really... an issue because:
a) The balls last approximately FOREVER


I've replaced balls as much as I've replaced chips. Nothing on boats lasts forever.




Re: Teflon washers destroyed [Re: drbinkle] #71486
04/23/06 08:10 PM
04/23/06 08:10 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Karl_Brogger  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Its kinda funny. I almost always forget that stupid little chip in the step when I trailer the boat, and they always fall out on the 10 mile trip home from the lake. I left one in coming home from Texas to Minnesota, 1700 miles!!!, and the friggin thing stayed there the hole way home. I lose more than I use, they end up disappearing before they wear out half the time. Another thing, what are they a couple bucks? They take 1.5 seconds to install? Suck it up Nancy.


I'm boatless.
Re: Teflon washers destroyed [Re: Karl_Brogger] #71487
04/24/06 12:24 PM
04/24/06 12:24 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 292
Ontario, Canada
Captain_Dave Offline
enthusiast
Captain_Dave  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 292
Ontario, Canada
Eddie (Flying Dutchman),

If you want to try and salvage your existing base and improve the floor of the socket, here are my suggestions for you:

First, simply grinding the protrusion will be difficult (as you have stated), but drilling it to below grade might be easy. Start with a small drill bit suitable for stainless steel (I use cobalt and zirconium bits) and carefully drill down into the very center of the protrusion - try not to drill down any more than necessary below the grade of the socket. Then proceed to much larger drill bits - or conical grinding bits - untill you end up with what would appear as a shallow countersunk depression where the protrusion previously was.

After this, clean out all contaminants from the socket. Use a degreaser/dewaxer/silicon remover. Any autobody shop may be willing give you a few ounces of this type of solvent for a couple bucks, otherwise its about 40 bucks a gallon - or more. Then mix up some JB-WELD (its a metal epoxy and VERY durable) and apply that to fill the voids and rebuild a nice looking socket. This will be easy to do with JBWeld - widely available.

JBweld is incredible stuff for this kind of high-wear, void filling application. It has wear resistance that is probably second to none for an epoxy filler. I have first-hand experience repairing a dime-size hole that went right through the cylinder wall of a 60hp engine... That was 12 years ago and the repair is still going today. I also used JBWeld when I had to drill out a badly damaged sparkplug thread. I then re-coated the cylinder head with JBWeld and retapped it. That repair is still going too.

What JBWeld does not tolerate very well is flex, or direct impact - it is relatively brittle.

I am fairly confident that when you properly decontaminate the bonding surfaces, the voids in the socket can then be dressed with JBWeld and be expected to hold up to the wear and tear. However, I`d very much recommend a proper teflon mast bearing at all times in the future to protect those surfaces.


Dave


Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 35 guests, and 403 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
chanwood, bluesoul, camshima, Elise, Luis_Bordino
7977 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
brucat 2
rehmbo 1
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,369
Posts266,945
Members7,977
Most Online1,650
Sep 10th, 2019
--Advertisement--
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1