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Cat Class Suicide? #74411
05/07/06 10:34 PM
05/07/06 10:34 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 21
Long Island Sound
MarkD Offline OP
stranger
MarkD  Offline OP
stranger

Joined: Feb 2006
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Long Island Sound
It seems like cat sailing has grown over the years but still hasn't been able to push into a more mainstream and regularly raced status. Couldn't one of the reasons for this be the many many different types of cats spread out amongst a not as great number of sailors? It seems like every year a bunch of new "revolutionary" cats come out that are suposed to be better and faster but each time they do they divide an already thin fleet. Even though these new boats contribute to the development of cat sailing it seems like the cat racing community is more in need of unity than a slighty more efficient hull design.

Does anyone have any thoughts or comments on this topic?

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: MarkD] #74412
05/07/06 11:15 PM
05/07/06 11:15 PM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A



Mark:

I would suggest everyone do what I did. Try to take at least 6 newbies out a year. I have helped 4 of them get cats. AND none where new high tech boats!!

Doug

Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: MarkD] #74413
05/08/06 04:40 AM
05/08/06 04:40 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
F
fin. Offline
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fin.  Offline
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Quote
. . . it seems like the cat racing community is more in need of unity than a slighty more efficient hull design.


True, but what can you do? Sail the boat you like and just take things as they come.

Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: fin.] #74414
05/08/06 05:08 AM
05/08/06 05:08 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,382
Essex, UK
Jalani Offline
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Jalani  Offline
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Haven't we already done this one?


John Alani
___________
Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538
Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: MarkD] #74415
05/08/06 05:25 AM
05/08/06 05:25 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,449
P
phill Offline
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phill  Offline
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This is the advantage of formula racing.
New or old, all included.


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: phill] #74416
05/08/06 07:25 AM
05/08/06 07:25 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Sebring, Florida.
Mark, I think you are mixing cat racing with cat sailing. Cat sailing (not racing) seems to be growing, especially in the charter world, as more people find out you don't have to spend the whole trip at 6 knots max, leaning over the rail getting splashed and sea sick. Charter cat fleets (35-45 footers) are on the rise, vs. monohulls.

As far as racing, the F18 class has brought many racers together that were previuosly spread out on the Hobie 20, Inter 20, Nacra 6.0, Nacra 5.5, Hobie 18, Hobie 17, etc. That is why that class is growing while the others are shrinking. The same number of sailors, but in the same class instead of spread out.

There is still the whole stigma of sailing being "Too hard" as well as too fickle, that is, we depend on the wind, which doesn't always cooperate. But as gas prices keep going up, maybe more people will consider sailing instead of Jet Skis.

I live on a lake in Florida, I have noticed much less power boat traffic this year, so far. I see lots of power boats sitting in the yards with a "For Sale" sign on them. That doesn't mean those people will buy sailboats, they probably will buy golf clubs. Most power boat people that I have talked to think sailing is both "too hard and too slow."

Here's something to think about: As gas prices keep going up, there will be less "disposable income" available for recreation. What do you think that is going to do to sailing, or boating in general? New boat prices also have to go up as they are made of resin which is made from petroleum. That's not going to help boat sales.

Less than 5% of people go baoting at all, less than 10% of those sail, less than 10% of the sailors sail Cats, less than 10% of cat sailors actaully race cats. That's a pretty small demographic to work with in the first place, now add in higher cost of trailering your boat to water, and higer new boat prices...

Last edited by Timbo; 05/08/06 07:38 AM.

Blade F16
#777
Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: Timbo] #74417
05/08/06 08:15 AM
05/08/06 08:15 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
F
fin. Offline
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fin.  Offline
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Posts: 3,348
Gas is not an issue for me, at least not yet! Since I'm only going to travel 3-5 hours one way, driving a Honda Element and averaging 50 mph at best, towing a 240 lb boat with the attendant gear, how much can that add to my trip? $20- 40$?

Finding a motel with suitable launching! That's a concern!

btw- Mark, what do you sail?

Last edited by Tikipete; 05/08/06 08:17 AM.
Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: fin.] #74418
05/08/06 08:40 AM
05/08/06 08:40 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
bvining Offline
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bvining  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
Pete,
Whats the Element get for gas mileage.

Bill

Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: bvining] #74419
05/08/06 09:03 AM
05/08/06 09:03 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
F
fin. Offline
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fin.  Offline
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F

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
23-26. Never really checked, but that's about right.

Last edited by Tikipete; 05/08/06 09:06 AM.
Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: MarkD] #74420
05/08/06 09:48 AM
05/08/06 09:48 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 503
BrianK Offline
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BrianK  Offline
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Posts: 503
Quote
It seems like cat sailing has grown over the years but still hasn't been able to push into a more mainstream and regularly raced status. Couldn't one of the reasons for this be the many many different types of cats spread out amongst a not as great number of sailors? It seems like every year a bunch of new "revolutionary" cats come out that are suposed to be better and faster but each time they do they divide an already thin fleet. Even though these new boats contribute to the development of cat sailing it seems like the cat racing community is more in need of unity than a slighty more efficient hull design.

Does anyone have any thoughts or comments on this topic?


Yes, I think this has been true especially for the last 3-5 years, however, the fleets are finally starting to settle out.

In Florida, I20, F18, F16, H16, A-Cat and Waves seem to be the classes that have survived and are growing.

Personally, I was always a fan of the SMOD, but it seems formula racing has come to the rescue of catsailing and is getting more boats on the starting line racing together.

The exceptions are the Hobie 16 which is a great option for SMOD and is also a great intro boat. The I20 is the distance and heavy crew boat king and seems to be doing fine. The waves also have a good group.

Seems to me that there is a good selection of fleets that should please just about everyone.

Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: BrianK] #74421
05/08/06 10:19 AM
05/08/06 10:19 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

I'm fully with Brian on this one. I only see improvement of the cat scene.

More then a decade ago we had over 15 catamaran classes here. In the 18 foot double handed segment alone you had :

dart hawk
nacra 5.5
hobie 18
dart 18
Prindle 18
Prindle 18-2 (very different to the prindle 18 !)

None of them wanted to play with the others.

No there is only one 18 doublehanded catamaran that as good as everyone is sailing. Formula 18

In the 20 foot and other length segments to same has happened or is happening. It is just a matter of time when we only have :

Tornado / nacra-20 (I-20)
F18
F16 (Includes the ISAF youth boat SL16 and Spitfire)
A-cat
Hobie 16

In the way of waves/mystere 4.3/tyka 4.3/KL14.5 segment it is yet unsure which will come out on top.

So we went from over 15 classes to a much smaller and better spread out scene of only 5 to 6 classes.

I also believe that this new selection covers as good as any need/desires that a particular crew may have.


Wouter



Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: Wouter] #74422
05/08/06 11:02 AM
05/08/06 11:02 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
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fin. Offline
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fin.  Offline
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I hope this isn't considered hijacking, but what would it take for the H16 to be F16 compliant??

Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: Wouter] #74423
05/08/06 11:10 AM
05/08/06 11:10 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 115
H
HobieZealot Offline
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HobieZealot  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 115
It's funny that you insist on refering to the F16 as if it was an establised class. The truth is it has no buisness being on a list with those other classes untill it has some REAL numbers out there. Everyone tends to agree on all the other classes but then adds an exception for their own class if it's an "other" (F16 in your case). There in lies the problem with lists. Everyone wants to make an exception for their favorite "other" class.

Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: Wouter] #74424
05/08/06 11:14 AM
05/08/06 11:14 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 984
2017 F18 Americas Site
Dan_Delave Offline
old hand
Dan_Delave  Offline
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Posts: 984
2017 F18 Americas Site
On the West Coast we are getting the most interest in the Formula 18s and the A-Cats. That is for the sailors coming from other disciplines. There is still a very hearty group of Hobie 16s. We do not see very many of the other boats coming out to race. I-20s show up with only about 2 boats, unless we are sailing in San Diego, where we can see about 7 of them. A-Cats mostly sail out of Long Beach, nice fleet, good sailors, but hard to pry from Long Beach format. Formula 18s sail the most (14 regattas/per year) in the most locations (6-7 venues). That means that we are seen by a lot of new people all the time. This is what generates the interest, "We actually sail." Having a lot of the "same boat" (Formula 18) on the line is really impressive to the racing fleets that are struggling. It is hard to beat the numbers game.

Later,
Dan

Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: HobieZealot] #74425
05/08/06 11:29 AM
05/08/06 11:29 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
F
fin. Offline
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fin.  Offline
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Quote
It's funny that you insist on refering to the F16 as if it was an establised class. The truth is it has no buisness being on a list with those other classes untill it has some REAL numbers out there. Everyone tends to agree on all the other classes but then adds an exception for their own class if it's an "other" (F16 in your case). There in lies the problem with lists. Everyone wants to make an exception for their favorite "other" class.


I was trying to draw some logic from your statement, but there doesn't seem to be any.

Sometimes the name tells the whole story.

Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: MarkD] #74426
05/08/06 12:25 PM
05/08/06 12:25 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 695
Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
Seeker Offline
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Seeker  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 695
Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
We must first agree that everything is in a state of change, something is either growing or it is dieing. The whole one design premise is based on a false assumption...that something can be static and survive.

The world is moving in fast forward, it thrives on new technology and invention…why then assume cat sailing is declining because of too much innovation? It seems the opposite is true…Catamaran sailing must keep re-inventing itself or it will be quickly left behind, dieing... as sports with more marketing savvy cannibalize the ranks.

It's all ABOUT the marketing...It has always BEEN about the marketing...and it will always BE about the Marketing.

Marketing is the battle field where numbers are won and lost.

Regards,
Bob


Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: Seeker] #74427
05/08/06 12:32 PM
05/08/06 12:32 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
F
fin. Offline
Carpal Tunnel
fin.  Offline
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Posts: 3,348
I have no idea if there is any truth to this story.

According to legend, Hobie Alter was happily building skate boards and surf boards when a marketing guy asked him to build a cat' so surfers would have something to do between waves.

The rest is history. If true it would make "The Hobie Way of Life" a remarkable marketing success story, and primarily a marketing story.

Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: Jalani] #74428
05/08/06 12:39 PM
05/08/06 12:39 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Clermont, FL, USA
Quote
Haven't we already done this one?


Done it to death!


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: Dan_Delave] #74429
05/08/06 12:40 PM
05/08/06 12:40 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Quote
On the West Coast we are getting the most interest in the Formula 18s and the A-Cats. That is for the sailors coming from other disciplines. There is still a very hearty group of Hobie 16s. We do not see very many of the other boats coming out to race. I-20s show up with only about 2 boats, unless we are sailing in San Diego, where we can see about 7 of them. A-Cats mostly sail out of Long Beach, nice fleet, good sailors, but hard to pry from Long Beach format. Formula 18s sail the most (14 regattas/per year) in the most locations (6-7 venues). That means that we are seen by a lot of new people all the time. This is what generates the interest, "We actually sail." Having a lot of the "same boat" (Formula 18) on the line is really impressive to the racing fleets that are struggling. It is hard to beat the numbers game.

Later,
Dan


Our F18 mass in our area has pretty much been maxed out from the current catamaran sailing ranks. There maybe one or two more to be added in the next couple of years. What IS working are where people have infiltrated local sailing clubs and talking up the class to sailors of other mono-hulls. There is a good bit of interest and we think think we could possibly add another three F18s to our region in the next year.

Size-wise, how does the F18 North American event stack up with other NA Sailing Championships in numbers? I bet it's already up there pretty high in the list.


Jake Kohl
Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: fin.] #74430
05/08/06 12:43 PM
05/08/06 12:43 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
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Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
The "legend" is that Hobie, Wayne Schaefer and Phil Edwards came of with the H-14 to have something to play with when the wind messed up the waves for surfing.

They were all surfing buddies. Phil did the shaping on the H-16 and H-18 (and by derivation, the H-17, since its hull is a cut down version of the H-18).

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