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Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: HobieZealot] #74431
05/08/06 01:20 PM
05/08/06 01:20 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,718
St Petersburg FL
Robi Offline
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Robi  Offline
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St Petersburg FL
Quote
It's funny that you insist on refering to the F16 as if it was an establised class.
Oh really? Then what are we? a product of our imagination?
http://formula16.org/
http://www.catsailor.com/forums/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=Fleet45


Quote
The truth is it has no buisness being on a list with those other classes untill it has some REAL numbers out there.
What do you define as a real number? As far as I know even a 0 zero is a real number. A ten without the zero is a ONE!. Just because we do not have 15+ f16 on the starting line does not make us a "REAL numbers" class. As far as I have seen the only class that gets big numbers an starting lines are the H16 and F18.

Quote
Everyone tends to agree on all the other classes but then adds an exception for their own class if it's an "other" (F16 in your case).
So far you have been the only one to say, we are not a real class. I did not read a majority or post saying otherwise. Seems to ME you are the only one here stating this. So there is no majority and your statement has no basis.
Quote
There in lies the problem with lists. Everyone wants to make an exception for their favorite "other" class.
Yeah and? everyone wants to beleive their boat is the best boat. There is nothing wrong with that. As long as we are having fun, its all good. But saying the F16 is NOT a class with "Real" numbers is old. The joke was funny back 2002

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: HobieZealot] #74432
05/08/06 01:24 PM
05/08/06 01:24 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Over 150 boats and growing, presence in 5 continents (only missing south-america and antarctica). 2007 Alter Cup boat, this feb 2007 a World Challenge in Singapore with 30-40 boats projected as participation. We even have 4 boats in a far off place like Shanghai China, ahead of everybody else. We have 3 builders linked to class a 4th is in the works. We have a local builder in all continents. If we wanted we could ask and get ISAF recognised status, we satisfy the requirements. We have now had class races in all area's except China. Glenn Asby himself sponsored the NSW F16 challenge Cup (Australia).

For local US zealots; since jan 2005 the US F16 class has grown by 15 boats and that is excluding the future 11 Alter Cup boats. At the time these are build (before feb 2007) then US F16 class will at least have doubled herself to just over 50 boats in total. During that time new orders may have been added.

Growth in other places in the world shows a similar development. A quick sum already results in 31 boats added world wide since jan 2005. And I didn't included the Stealth F16 sales in the UK yet. There are now 40 stealths in the UK.

Now in all honesty; do you see any design, not initially listed, like FX-one, F17, Swell Shadow, nacra 500 or even the Spitfire do anything like this ?

Because I certainly don't.

Some of you may not like it. And yes you can take any single area and argue that growth is modest locally. But the thing to remember here is that the F16 class does this modest growth in 5 different places at the same time, all over the world. This while near all other designs not listed can't even get such a modest growth in one single spot.

Again, you may not like it, but the race has been run. We have achieved critical mass, F16 is here to stay



P.S. I didn't name the Dart 18 in my initial listing as I really believe that that class is dying beyond a hope of a change in fortunes.

Last edited by Wouter; 05/08/06 01:38 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: Wouter] #74433
05/08/06 01:28 PM
05/08/06 01:28 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,718
St Petersburg FL
Robi Offline
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And this hole topic was played out by ME back in March.

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...ew=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: fin.] #74434
05/08/06 01:32 PM
05/08/06 01:32 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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North-West Europe



-1- get a spinnaker if you want to have any chance of being in the race.
-2- invoke grandfather clause.
-3- show up, be respectful to boat owners of other makes and race

I promise that I'll be nice to the Hobie 16 sailors

Wouter






Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: Wouter] #74435
05/08/06 03:20 PM
05/08/06 03:20 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 115
H
HobieZealot Offline
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HobieZealot  Offline
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H

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Posts: 115
Quote
If we wanted we could ask and get ISAF recognised status


Lets see it happen, unless this is all just talk.

Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: HobieZealot] #74436
05/08/06 03:46 PM
05/08/06 03:46 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
F
fin. Offline
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fin.  Offline
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F

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
Quote
Quote
If we wanted we could ask and get ISAF recognised status


Lets see it happen, unless this is all just talk.


Anybody hear anything? Flies buzzing? There's no one out there, must be the flies! With that odor so peculiar to anonymity, it must be the flies.

Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: fin.] #74437
05/08/06 03:56 PM
05/08/06 03:56 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Quote
Quote
Quote
If we wanted we could ask and get ISAF recognised status


Lets see it happen, unless this is all just talk.


Anybody hear anything? Flies buzzing? There's no one out there, must be the flies! With that odor so peculiar to anonymity, it must be the flies.


It could be the no-see-ums.


Jake Kohl
Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: Jake] #74438
05/08/06 04:01 PM
05/08/06 04:01 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
F
fin. Offline
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fin.  Offline
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F

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
If we wanted we could ask and get ISAF recognised status


Lets see it happen, unless this is all just talk.


Anybody hear anything? Flies buzzing? There's no one out there, must be the flies! With that odor so peculiar to anonymity, it must be the flies.


It could be the no-see-ums.


Sniff, sniff! No, that's something much more common than no-see-ums!! . What we really need is a leash law!

Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: Seeker] #74439
05/09/06 08:28 AM
05/09/06 08:28 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 9
W
who_me Offline
stranger
who_me  Offline
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W

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 9
Seeker wrote;

"We must first agree that everything is in a state of change, something is either growing or it is dieing. The whole one design premise is based on a false assumption...that something can be static and survive.

The world is moving in fast forward, it thrives on new technology and invention…why then assume cat sailing is declining because of too much innovation? It seems the opposite is true…Catamaran sailing must keep re-inventing itself or it will be quickly left behind, dieing... as sports with more marketing savvy cannibalize the ranks.

It's all ABOUT the marketing...It has always BEEN about the marketing...and it will always BE about the Marketing.

Marketing is the battle field where numbers are won and lost.

Regards,
Bob"


Sorry but it is just WRONG to say that "one design sailing is based on a false assumption.....that something can be static and survive".

The first two one designs EVER in small-boat sailing are both sailing happily today, and they were both created in 1884. The first International small-boat class is one of the most popular singlehanders afloat, and it was designed in 1912. The first International yacht class is still popular and still Olympic. The second one design cat class (Shearwater) has been around for over 50 years, I think. What is the most popular cat class? Hobie 16 - pretty much the same boat for 35+ years.

So the plain and simple FACT, however much you may dislike it, is that one designs classes DO survive, and some of them have survived much, much longer than many development classes. Seen many Cs, 18 squares, or Ds lately?

Not all of the world IS moving forward. Look at surfing; the old-style '60s vintage longboards are more popular than "modern" boards. Look at windsurfing - it dumped OD classes, went "progressive", and is now about 8% as big as it was when there were lots of OD boards. Look at yacht sailing - biggest events for years have been classic boat races like the 276 strong Dragon regatta. Even in dinghies, the classes that are growing fastest are the older, slow ODs like Lasers, Radials and Optis.

The facts are plain, the facts are simple. In a fast, high-tech world, many people are turning to their sport for relief from instant obsolescence. In the sport of sailing generally, the numbers do not lie - the ODs are surviving, the ODs are thriving, the slow boats are often growing.

Even in cats, what is the major growth class (arguably)? F18 - not an OD, but a class that has specifically outlawed "moving forward" too fast.


Last edited by who_me; 05/09/06 08:30 AM.
Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: who_me] #74440
05/09/06 09:24 AM
05/09/06 09:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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WORD!


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: who_me] #74441
05/09/06 09:27 AM
05/09/06 09:27 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
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Keith  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Quote

The first two one designs EVER in small-boat sailing are both sailing happily today, and they were both created in 1884. The first International small-boat class is one of the most popular singlehanders afloat, and it was designed in 1912. The first International yacht class is still popular and still Olympic. The second one design cat class (Shearwater) has been around for over 50 years, I think. What is the most popular cat class? Hobie 16 - pretty much the same boat for 35+ years.

So the plain and simple FACT, however much you may dislike it, is that one designs classes DO survive, and some of them have survived much, much longer than many development classes. Seen many Cs, 18 squares, or Ds lately?


So, if we look at the classes you mention (I'm guessing one is the Star), we'll see that they are exactly as designed when they became a class? The Star has seen rig and sail plan updates through the years. They are no longer built with planking on frames. The Tornado has seen updates through the years. Just about every OD class that has had long legs to it has been able to update to keep somewhat current and relevant, either from a materials or design modification standpoint. Now that we've given some examples of long-timed OD classes, I'm sure we can come up with a larger number of one design classes that have also died over time. AMF Alcort brought out the Force Five as a one design alternative to the Laser. Don't think it's much of a class these days. Hard to find big Hobie-14 OD action in the states (one of the biggest shames I believe) - and, yes there are small pockets around, but not really a strong OD scene. Seen a Prindle 19 regatta lately? The Point is - being one design does not automatically guarantee success. And not updating a design from time to time means that at some point it becomes "quaint" and will become less attractive. Even Optis have developments that have been applied through the years.

I think a big killer in OD is the single manufacturer supply concept. You can't race if you don't buy your tramp from the original builder. Same with sails. What crap. Prices go up, quality goes down. I've crewed on Flying Scots - old OD class that would support your premise. But you can buy sails and other parts from a variety of manufacturers (just must measure in). And while I'm not up on complete Flying Scot history, I'm sure there have been rig updates voted in through the years.

In keelboats, by far the most participation in racing is NOT in OD. It is in the legions of people that bring out whatever they have and race PHRF on Wednesday and Friday nights, all across the nation.

But all that aside - to build cat sailing, either in the racing venues or as a past time, we need to bring fresh blood in. New sailors will revitalize old and new classes. Restore the critical mass.

Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: Keith] #74442
05/09/06 09:41 AM
05/09/06 09:41 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 503
BrianK Offline
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Quote
Seen a Prindle 19 regatta lately?


This really isnt relevant to the discussion but last month I stopped by the local sail shop and they were assembling 3 brand new Prindle 19s. Apparently some guy has a fleet of them somewhere in the Bahamas and wanted some new ones.

So, there is a fleet a Prindle 19s, growing somewhere, and you can still buy them!

Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: Keith] #74443
05/09/06 10:04 AM
05/09/06 10:04 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline
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_flatlander_  Offline
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So, in the US, using the 5% of the 287M are boaters, and 10% are sailors, and 10% are racers, then what precentage are cat sailors or racers, of the 143,500 racers? We are a small precentage or group.

It seems the entry level is important to sustain, or perpetuate, or hopefully grow our numbers and recent development does nothing more than satisfy "our" needs as racers. Recent developments, i.e. new classes, have done nothing but feed the existing cat racing demographic. Are used 5.8 or H20's doing much for growing entry level sailor numbers?

I believe a boardless, sloop or cat rig is nessasary. Depending on where you are it's a Hobie, Prindle or NACRA, with the Hobie 16 as the only widespread, viable entrance to racing.

Where is Hans at with the G-cat development? A boat that can be modified from rental boat to full compliant F16? That's the only innovative idea/design I've seen lately. One with potential to grow numbers from the entry level.

In the mean time we'll keep plucking H16's out of barnyards and making one good boat out of two.


John H16, H14
Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: _flatlander_] #74444
05/09/06 10:11 AM
05/09/06 10:11 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
F
fin. Offline
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I am an unabashed H16 lover! I offer no apology. I think it is one of the best all round designs to date. And, IMO possibly the best looking.

If they weighed a little less and offered one-up racing, I'd probably still be sailing one. On second thought, if they offered one-up racing, I'd learn to live with the weight.

Good on ya' bud.

Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: Keith] #74445
05/09/06 11:52 AM
05/09/06 11:52 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 887
Crofton, MD
Chris9 Offline
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With you all the way Keith: "But you can buy sails and other parts from a variety of manufacturers (just must measure in)." And pay the royalty; many classes do it this way.

Would it help to join the class association? Is that a change that could happen with the N20 class?


Chris Allen
Nacra 20 Gertie
www.wrcra.org
Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: fin.] #74446
05/09/06 02:31 PM
05/09/06 02:31 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 371
Michigan, USA
sparky Offline
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sparky  Offline
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Posts: 371
Michigan, USA
Quote
I am an unabashed H16 lover! I offer no apology. I think it is one of the best all round designs to date. And, IMO possibly the best looking.

If they weighed a little less and offered one-up racing, I'd probably still be sailing one. On second thought, if they offered one-up racing, I'd learn to live with the weight.


Well Pete, I see more of them raced one-up than I do two-up, but I don't go to the Hobie-only regattas. It is not that I wouldn't go but I'm just not welcome unless I buy a Hobie to race, and I'm not going back to Hobie. Been there, done that. At open regattas in the Midwest, many of them are sailed one-up and they seem pretty fast that way. So you can have your dream boat, Pete. Go buy the H16 and single-hand it! Just race handicap.


Les Gallagher
Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: sparky] #74447
05/09/06 04:02 PM
05/09/06 04:02 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
F
fin. Offline
Carpal Tunnel
fin.  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
F

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
Too late! I'm picking up my Blade on the 19th.

Still, it's that "first love" thing.

Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: David Ingram] #74448
05/09/06 05:22 PM
05/09/06 05:22 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 695
Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
Seeker Offline
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Seeker  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 695
Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
Who me...Mr.Anonymous
You totally missed the point, and I don't have the time nor the desire to try and explain it to you.

Regards,
Bob

Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: Seeker] #74449
05/10/06 01:00 AM
05/10/06 01:00 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 9
W
who_me Offline
stranger
who_me  Offline
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W

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 9
Well, that's a well thought out, logical and factual rebuttal of my post Seeker .

Sorry I'm anonymous.....of course we all know exactly which of the 150,000`"Bobs" in sailing you are.


Keith, sure some (not all) of the classes I mentioned have been significantly updated. In others, the only change has been a shift to newer, cheaper materials. And sure, some OD classes have died. Of course I would never try to say OD guarantees success.

The attraction of strict manufacturer-supplied ODs is another matter (I know I can afford to race my manufacturer-supplied ODs for less than I can afford to race my development gear, and I just don't care if one is a couple of minutes quicker than the other).

I was NOT attacking development or Formula classes, merely pointing out the gaping flaws in Seeker's assertion. I think we need Formula and development classes as well as ODs, and manufacturer ODs.

I totally agree there's a need to bring in new sailors to restore critical mass.

All I'm saying is that ODs are NOT doomed, and they DO grow (which is indisputable looking at the figures of ODs like H16s).

But all that aside - to build cat sailing, either in the racing venues or as a past time, we need to bring fresh blood in. New sailors will revitalize old and new classes. Restore the critical mass.



Re: Cat Class Suicide? [Re: who_me] #74450
05/10/06 09:13 AM
05/10/06 09:13 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
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Keith  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Quote

The attraction of strict manufacturer-supplied ODs is another matter (I know I can afford to race my manufacturer-supplied ODs for less than I can afford to race my development gear, and I just don't care if one is a couple of minutes quicker than the other).


Here's where we differ. Just because multiple manufacturers can supply an OD class does not make it a development class. I believe you can race cheaper with better gear if the classes were not strict one manufacturer. I also believe this would supply more business to local suppliers that could use our business.

Case in point - we just got our brand new tramp from our one design manufacturer. It has one less slot cut for lacing the back then there are pins on the crossbeam, meaning that one is not being used and the lacing is offset in areas. Checking other boats show that indeed, our tramp is a goof. We have a local sailmaker who does great work, and can supply sails at a better cost and quality that measure in. Plus, because he's local, he can look things over if there is a problem. He could also make the tramps. So, we could be cheaper, have better gear, and make the same speed. Again, all of this is not development stuff. But we must buy from the manufacturer...

We like to think of the cost of bringing in other suppliers as beginning an arms race. Maybe, but how much does it cost to get a crappy sail from the manufacturer, that you then race at a disadvantage, or have have to go through the hassle of explaining the need to return it to somebody on the other coast?

Just food for thought.

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