Sorry, I can't make the Florida race due to a cycling event. I thought I'd shoot for the Singapore race! Fits into my schedule better. Really convenient too!

Tom Turlington
F17 #12
Lower Alabama

There seems to be a recurring phenomenon. People who have been away for awhile are getting back into cat' sailing.

The local youth group is interested in establish mast up storage for cats, seemingly to retain the interest of their teen sailors. As a result, I will be changing my local club affiliation to this group and making the Blade and the Tiki available to them.

One of the guys interested is a former Division 8 H14 Champ and H16 competitor who now has a teenage son. I have offered the Blade to them at their convenience.

Their chief guru is interested in putting on Cat' regatta, but is most interested in January which would conflict with Tradewinds. I have strongly discouraged this date.

If anyone is interested, I'll be glad to keep you posted.

Pete I would be interested considering that Cape Coral iant too far from me. Albeit maybe this event can be a more than a day sail??

Keep me posted

It would be like any other regatta, two days.

The beach is less than 100 yards from U.S. 41 and there is a motel on the water well within walking distance, a motel across the street, also within walking distance and at least two restaurants within walking distance. So, this is a very convenient venue.

btw- it isn't in Cape Coral, it's in North Ft. Myers. http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&a...p;scene=1926015 Type in "North Fort Myers Florida" you will see 3 bridges, zoom in on the single bridge and the North shore, click on "Bird's eye view" and that's the spot. (you should be seeing 4-lanes of U.S. 41, a beach and park that make a right angle with the North shore of the Caloosahatche River. The building is a motel.

Thom,

You started this. I remember at that regatta that I beat the I-17's boat for boat in at least 3 out of 5 races but could never correct out against Curry (I did beat you boat for boat and corrected in 4 out of 5 races). So maybe you can explain again how I was destroyed?

Bob Hodges

[/quote]

Thom,

You started this. I remember at that regatta that I beat the I-17's boat for boat in at least 3 out of 5 races but could never correct out against Curry (I did beat you boat for boat and corrected in 4 out of 5 races). So maybe you can explain again how I was destroyed?

Bob Hodges [/quote]

Bob,

I tried to find the old spreadsheet after I saw your post but was unsuccessful. As I remember it, I was able to win out over the other 3 to 5 A-cats for most of the regatta while beating you only on race one. Of course, my trying to drag "B" mark back to the starting line on race two didn't help my speed any.

I was thinking Curry won most of the races against you boat for boat. As you could see in my post, I was trying to keep this on a boat vs boat level by saying that the F17's destroyed the A boats in this regatta.

I believe I have made my point by saying that the two F17's were able to get more wins against the A-cats than the A's did against the F17.

But if your point is that you were able to beat me more than I beat you in the regatta, you are correct.


Tom Turlington

ps. I look forward to seeing you again at Island Hop...... (-:

And how do you like the spinnaker so far ?

Wouter

Tom,

In Race 1, the combination of overlaying and then nearly turning over at A mark let you and Curry get ahead to the point I could not catch back up to you.

I know for sure that I finished 1-1.5 minutes ahead of Bob in Races 3-5 but was frustrated that I could not correct out on him. I can't remember in Race 2 if I beat Bob boat for boat.

I think the comparison between Bob and I in that event represents how the A-cat will sail against the I-17 in W-L buoy races. I concluded that a well sailed A-cat will beat an I-17 boat for boat but will struggle to correct out. Of the other A-cats, I know Woody Cope was dealing with a sail that was not that competitive off the wind and Rush Bird was sailing a borrowed boat.

Bob raised the level of I-17 sailing up a notch when he started sailing in the class. I anticipate the Michigan I-17 fleet will do the same with their numbers and with Matt Struble in the fleet. That's a good thing for the I-17 class.

Bob

Bob,

I just wanted to point out that the above quote was in the same post as the remark you quoted me on. Now back to the " my boat is better than your boat" discussion .........

Yeah, I remember seeing a boat in the corner of my eye at " A " mark during race 1 that I thought was going to go over in a crowd of boats during the rounding. You did a fine job saving it!

As far as you being frustrated that you couldn't close up on the Unimaster, try racing him every week.

Also, thanks for pointing out all the problems with the other A Boat skippers. Did I mention I had a runny nose during the whole regatta?? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

BTW, I found out this weekend that I didn't know how to sail a unirig in 2005. I've been sailing it like .........well, I haven't been sailing at all, just setting everything and steering like hell.

Now that you have noticed all the talented sailors coming into the F17 fleet, it may be time for you to pickup a used F17. There are 2 guys in Pensacola that could possibly be persuaded to sell. They just do not have the time to sail anymore it appears. I think you would really enjoy it.

In summary though, I believe my original statement was correct. The F17's had more boat for boat wins against the A boats than the other way around. I didn't say this to " put down " the A cats. I said it because I just get tired of seeing it over and over on the forum that the F17 is too heavy to be competitive. Actually, in many situations, I believe the extra weight may even be a plus......


Tom

The A cat is a more competitive fleet in the US and Worldwide. That is the most important thing to most (but not all) competitive sailors.

That's a great quote PPS, but the last time I even saw an A cat was in November 2005 in the regatta Bobster and I are discussing.

I guess I could get one and just feel that I was part of something much larger than I am but have no one to sail against unless I travelled to far away places each time. Or I could get an F17 and drive 10 mintues away to race other F17's.

Also, would you buy an A cat if you lived near the area where Catfight is held every year to be in a fleet that is more competitive worldwide if you already have a local fleet of F17's that is 15 to 20 boats strong?

I'm guessing some of the sailors in the F17 fleet could compete quite nicely with the A cat sailors be they local or half a continent away.

Tom

Tom, could you give us some examples?<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Thanks

[/quote]

Actually, in many situations, I believe the extra weight may even be a plus......


Tom [/quote]

Tom,

To sum up, I think you will always see a "well sailed" A-Cat still probably finish slightly ahead of a "well sailed" I-17 boat for boat in buoy racing. But as long as the ratings remain what they are, that A-boat will probably have a tough time correcting out against the "well sailed" I-17 as we saw in November. Distance racing is a different scenario. If you guys have a long downwind leg, we're in trouble. Just be sure we don't have a long upwind leg to catch back up to you!

Regarding A-boats in the south and how we "dilute" the singlehanded racing. We currently have 8 active boats in LA and TX (which will grow to 10 in September), two in the Fort Walton area, 3 in Atlanta, and I believe 10-12 boats in central and south Florida. Mark Ederer in Ocean Springs is ready to buy a boat and I had gotten him in contact with a seller in Annapolis last week.

Besides our Midwinter Race Week this past January with 42 boats racing, we were the largest one design fleet at the Deep South Regatta in Lake Charles in April, the largest one design fleet at the Galveston Bay Catamaran Championship in May, and the largest one design fleet at the Wayward Winds Regatta (also on Galveston Bay) last October. Each of these local events had 7 A-cats racing. The Gulfport, FL A-Class/F-16 event had 9 A-boats racing. I have told my district chairmen for central and south Florida and the Gulf coast that we want to make it a priority to try to get more boats in the Panhandle. With the availibility of the excellent Bim XJ being built by Vectorworks in Titusville, we hope to see that happen. So if you, Chris Sawyer,and Bob MUR get tired of just racing each other, we'll be happy to welcome you all to our fleet.

Regards,

Bob Hodges
A2 USA 230

Bob,

You've got some minor A cat activity building in Atlanta, GA too - two F17 sailors sold their boats in lieu of A's earlier this year and have been hitting the local regatta circuit. They claim to be very pleased with their new rides.

Bob,

It's good to hear that Mark E. is going Uni. He is an excellent sailor and will make a good addition to the A Cat fleet.

As far as getting the core F17 sailors in my area to switch over, I think the traveling is still a problem even though the races you named are relatively close. It would still involve over night stays etc. Bob MUR has ranching duties that have to be taken care of on the weekends so he usually needs a day for that. Chris S. is supporting his son in his quest to become a stock car racer, and I have my 50-60 mile "fast" ride with the cycling club on Sundays. Then there is the financial aspect to consider, (of switching boats) and the fact that we wouldn't have a local dealer to support us. Also, as you know, we have some really fun distance races here which can be blast to do on the F17. The two Seabuoy races, RTI in FWB, and the two events at OSYC. By the way, that was an excellent pitchpole you had last year on the reach back from Horn Island!! I had a ring side seat since I was right behind you.

As far as which boat will win out when it comes to A cats vs F17's, you would have to consider many different variables. The biggest problem would be getting two skippers of equal ability. Then there would be the question of weather: wind strength, etc.

I was still a bit surprised how close the F17's were to the A's on the upwind legs though at the Alter Elim. 2005. Then, we had that reach to deal with. Throw out the reach and let us pop the spins that much earlier and the results may have been even more in favor of the 17's.

The more I think about it, the more I conclude that you cannot really compare these boats to each other. It’s all in what type boat you would rather sail. The A boat is easy to rig, and you only have the one sail to worry about. The F17 can be a monster to handle especially when the wind get up, and because of that, some of us "old" skippers are getting into better shape than we have been in years. So, it boils down to the following:

What are they racing in your area?

How much travelling are you willing to do?

How much rigging do you want to have to deal with?

Do you like to distance race?

Are you willing to work hard on the water all day on your day off?

Tom Turlington

NACRA F17 #12
Litespeed Vortex, Dura Ace, Mavic Ksyrium SL Wheelset

One of the things I really enjoy about the Acat is the simplicity of the rigging. I also own a HT and a have owned a Dart 16 and both are much harder to rig. The Dart was heavy to move around and the mast was (is) heavy. The HT is a pain to rig for a daily sail.

By contrast the A is simple to rig, so I tend to run down to the ramp after work and get in a quick sail, I wouldnt have done that with either of my previous boats.

At one point I left my HT at Sail Newport, which was 2 hours away just so I could leave it rigged and ready to go.

I'm pretty sure I'll get more sailing in with the Acat and thats a big plus for me.


Bill

One other factor that you need to consider is:

Does the "pick a fleet" travel to the events that you want to go to.... OR... are they content with their mast up storage and local racing scene and how does your life match this scene.

The Bristol RI A cat fleet has international level sailors and they race on Tuesday night's. By and large.. most of these guys don't travel for local or regional cat or big regatta type events. So they have a couple of A cat lovers who drive 2 hours each way for tuesday night racing. Not the typical weeknight racer!

Just down the coast is the Mid Atlantic Hobie 17 fleet. They don't have a mast up storage home... They race on weekends at the standard Hobie 2 day regattas and have had great turnouts year after year with 35 to 45 boats at their regionals (or nationals). So, if your life does not let you get away for the weeknight racing.... You have the weekend Hobie 17 option.

My point is that perhaps more important them what boat you choose to sail is what is the schedule of the fleet you join and how close to you it is.

Since racing is a social activity...you must have others of like mind in agreement to go race on X day and know that they make good on their commitment and show up.

While the debate is interesting "which rig is faster... " Light A cat verus heavy spin cat...

Most handicappers would tell you... .... eh... you have to seperate spin's from non spins..... that is the critical factor... Thje single handed or double handed split always seems to tilt to the single hander becuase the teamwork needed to make the two man boat go is not trivial....

I personally believe that when you have a good team racing a good singlehander the ratings work properly.

How about a light spin cat ? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Besides who says that you have to rig the spi on a weekday evening sail ?

I do evening sails as well and I rig the spin when I feel like it and don't when I don't feel like it.

It is not like you HAVE to rig the spi.

Wouter

Quote:
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While the debate is interesting "which rig is faster... " Light A cat verus heavy spin cat...

How about a light spin cat ?


Ah... I knew you would rise to the bait Wouter.

You are focusing on the qualities of the boats.... (I should not have used heavy in my desription of the N17.)

From what I have observed... sailors who factor racing class heavily into their boat choice equation are probably looking at the immediate racing scene in their region. They recognize that everyone has to buy into the same boat in order to get what they want out of their racing hours..

Sailors who are looking at the flexibility and fit of the boat to their kind of sailing are less concerned about a racing scene and so strenght of the racing class drops well down on the list of priorities.

For example We have four Taipan's on the bay within 20 miles but have gotten no more then two out at the same time and that is but once. (three live on the same beach) Is this a class?

To me.... the term racing class describes the people and their commitment to racing more then the boat. The Bristol A class does their thing on tuesday nights. the Mid Atlantic Div 11 Hobie 17 class does their thing on weekends. These racing classes are very clear on exactly what they do.
The Bristol fleet races A cats on Tuesday nights. Period!
The Div 11 H17 fleet races H17's on 6 weekends a year. Period!

This commitment is the most important factor in the term RACING CLASS. it's the people and their shared commitment... not their shared boats that is the essential ingredient of a succesful racing class.

So, Bob Hodges is very clear about what his Southern A class needs to do... Identify what the commitment is of the A class sailors outside the existing areas of strenght and support that commitment when that's possible. Perhaps some of those sailors don't care about the "racing A class"... just like my local Taipans dont care... That's fine ...... its just a tough call for Bob to make ... because everyone is brainwashed to say... "Oh Yes... racing class is very important to me... Yes I will support the program" ... when really.... its down on the list and they value other priorities when push comes to shove. (nothing wrong about this either... its the way it is)

I recently looked back on my notes from Stuart Walker's talk with respect to resentment in a class. Once you get people organized and on the same page with respect to their commitment... Then you have to manage Stuarts resentment notion. Else... things can quickly fall apart.

Here's an interesting comparision table I did primarily for my own curiosity:

F-16 240 300 201 389 0.37 0.72
A-Class 165 165 150 150 0.45 0.45
F-17 320 165 170 337 0.35 0.69
F-18 396 330 228 454 0.31 0.63
F-18HT 285 330 215 430 0.35 0.70
I-20 390 350 246 516 0.33 0.70
M-20 253 330 250 500 0.43 0.86
Tornado 350 330 258 527 0.38 0.78

For each boat listed, column 1 is boat weight, column 2 is average crew weight, column 3 is upwind sail area, column 4 is downwind sail area, column 5 is upwind sail area/combined weight, and column 6 is downwind sail area/combined weight. The ratios are essentially horsepower/weight ratios. While this ignores several factors such as hull shapes, foils, and waterline length I thought it could offer a general indicator of relative performance.

My own personal conclusions (backed up by actual racing) are that upwind the A-cat obviously looks best and I think in under 8-10 knots of wind, it always is. Once the bigger boats start to power up, the Tornado is faster and I would say the M-20 should be faster. The I-20 and the F-18 get closer but the A-cat still has a very noticeable speed edge.

Downwind, the F-16 ratio looks impressive against the bigger boats and that is why I am so interested in its performance. Matt McDonald feels the F-16 sailors are getting better and better and are now really challenging the F-18's boat for boat in combined fleet racing. The numbers above seem to suggest that could be the case and the performance and suitability of the boat to lighter crews hopefully will continue its own niche while not really affecting the F-18 class which is better suited to a bigger crew. The I-17 actually looks pretty good downwind also. It should have a bigger advantage downwind against the A-cat compared to the advantage the A-cat has against it upwind. It begs the question why does the A-cat give the I-17 time on handicap with this upwind/downwind performance comparison. How does the I-17 do boat for boat against an I-20 downwind? On paper it looks faster and I would think its also faster than an F-18.

Am I wrong in this evaluation, what am I missing in the conclusions above? Fun stuff to play with.

Bob Hodges