| Re: The Magic Formula for a Successful Class ?
[Re: phill]
#82291 08/11/06 06:01 AM 08/11/06 06:01 AM |
Joined: May 2003 Posts: 4,451 West coast of Norway Rolf_Nilsen
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Posts: 4,451 West coast of Norway | How would you define successful? The C-class is pretty successful in my opinion, in bringing forth the fastest sailing yacht under 25feet. But I assume you mean a large and vital class? Inclusiveness. New sailors (and old) must feel that they are welcome to the class and part of a succesful group. Especially so when racing. If you feel outside of the group, you will soon look for a new group (I believe this is "confirmed" by psychology litterature, e.g. Maslows pyramid: http://www.itiadventure.com/Maslow.jpg ). Studying Maslows pyramid, you will see the most important, basic, needs lowest down, and self-actualisation at the top. I think this is pretty descriptive of what sailors look for, but different sailors seek different levels of the pyramid. For some the basic inclusiveness and having fun is enough, while others want to be the class champion and achieve self-actualisation trough racing. Important points to attract new sailors are affordability, image of the class and publicity. Attracting new sailors to a class is just as important as keeping the old ones in the class. The magic will not happen unless there are some "sparkplugs" who start things and keep them rolling. To get the first boats on the water, you need something special like the one-up/two up options of the F-16. Or somebody well-connected sets up the class and gets it going trough sponsors/spending money, like the Vx40 or SeaCart30. | | | Re: The Magic Formula for a Successful Class ?
[Re: Rolf_Nilsen]
#82293 08/11/06 07:21 AM 08/11/06 07:21 AM |
Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,348 fin.
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Posts: 3,348 | How would you define successful? . . .
Inclusiveness. New sailors (and old) must feel that they are welcome to the class and part of a succesful group. Especially so when racing. If you feel outside of the group, you will soon look for a new group . . . Well said Rolf, couldn't agree more! | | | Re: The Magic Formula for a Successful Class ?
[Re: warbird]
#82295 08/11/06 07:34 PM 08/11/06 07:34 PM |
Joined: May 2006 Posts: 954 Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K Mark P
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Posts: 954 Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K | A good Yacht/Sailing Club is the grass roots to any form of sailing. If the majority of people are friendly enthusiastic and forthcoming with information then what ever boat is sailed the members will feel very positive and upbeat whether sailing an Optimist or Tornado. Maslow, Hertsberg or Katz is a bit deep for me but give me a pint or two and I can sing the virtues of Sailing... and as for a good 'Class' then thats not going to be easy as we all have different agendas. Somebody famous once said you can please some of the people some of the time but you can't please all of the people all of the time. Everybody makes mistakes (don't I know it) and so do Classes. My personal expierence of some of the UK Classes is that they get so big they forget the little people and the worm always turns. Luckily for us if the worm turns there is always somebody who will put them back on track. MP*MULTIHULLS | | | Re: The Magic Formula for a Successful Class ?
[Re: Mark P]
#82296 08/12/06 03:51 PM 08/12/06 03:51 PM |
Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,528 Looking for a Job, I got credi... scooby_simon Hull Flying, Snow Sliding.... |
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
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Posts: 3,528 Looking for a Job, I got credi... | I think some of the most important things are openness, honesty, willing to listen to others opinions and also the willingness of those at the top of the class to help those lower down.
I think most classes could learn from the Musto Performance Skiff class in the UK. They ran 6 (yes six) free training sessions at the same time all over the UK for anyone who wanted to attend.
If I ever wanted a single handed 1/2 boat, I would by an MPS !
F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD I also talk sport here | | | Re: The Magic Formula for a Successful Class ?
[Re: scooby_simon]
#82297 08/13/06 08:21 AM 08/13/06 08:21 AM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | Scooby, I also think having the top sailors help the new ones is very important. Getting new people into any sport is always difficult but if there are free events to train new people, that will certainly help. The top sailors then will have a stronger resale market for their boats when they want to buy a new one. The new sailor gets a good boat set up right, at a discount.
With sailing the cutting edge technology will always bring in the top sailors (America's Cup, C cats, A cats) but a cheaper and more available entry will bring in more sailors, which is why the Laser and Hobie 16 still have the biggest numbers even though they are about the oldest designs out there still being raced in large numbers. They fill the role of "entry level racing boat" but the new ones are still raced by some of the best, so that covers a wide spectrum of sailors. You can get an old one cheap to learn on then trade your way up as you get better. One of the first things non-sailing people ask me (especially the Dads) is, "How much does one of those things cost?" I always tell them I bought my first one for $500. I never say, "Well a new one is $15,000, plus a trailer, plus wheels, plus..." because that will put anyone new to the sport off immediately.
But most of all I think there has to be other people to race against who are willing to share their knowledge with the new sailors. And every class needs a "Guru" available to the rest of the fleet. Look at what Wouter has done with the F16's. Look at what Dermot has done in Dublin with the Spitfire fleet, Andi Lutz with the F18HT's in Switzerland and what Matt is doing over here with the Blade. These guys have worked their butts off. Using their own money and time they have built strong local fleets by brining in new sailors, using their boats as demo rides and sharing their knowledge. Like all good things in life, it takes Time, Money and Hard Work. OH, and it has to be fun! If there's going to be a lot of yelling and screaming, well I can get that at home for free. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Last edited by Timbo; 08/13/06 10:08 AM.
Blade F16 #777
| | | Re: The Magic Formula for a Successful Class ?
[Re: warbird]
#82299 08/13/06 04:14 PM 08/13/06 04:14 PM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | Just come to my house and tell my wife I'm buying a new boat.. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
Blade F16 #777
| | | Re: The Magic Formula for a Successful Class ?
[Re: Timbo]
#82300 08/13/06 05:09 PM 08/13/06 05:09 PM |
Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 915 Dublin, Ireland Dermot
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Posts: 915 Dublin, Ireland | I have been on holiday for the past 2 weeks and have just come home for our Inland Champs ( http://www.blsc.ie/2006/Cat%20Inlands/inlandos.html ), so I have not being keeping an eye on the forum recently. I am heading away again tomorrow, but I would just like to say that I get almost as much pleasure from taking a beginner out sailing on a cat and seeing the look of amazement and pleasure on their face, as I get when winning a race.
Dermot Catapult 265
| | | Re: The Magic Formula for a Successful Class ?
[Re: Timbo]
#82301 08/13/06 05:27 PM 08/13/06 05:27 PM |
Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,246 Orlando, FL tback
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Posts: 1,246 Orlando, FL | Just come to my house and tell my wife I'm buying a new boat.. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Tim, Just arrive home with that new boat and tell you're wife you *won it* by being best-in-your class at that Delta Flight Simuluator School. Always has worked for me. (Yelling and screaming subside after about 1 week...new boat lasts for years!).
USA 777
| | | Re: The Magic Formula for a Successful Class ?
[Re: tback]
#82302 08/13/06 06:57 PM 08/13/06 06:57 PM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | I figured I'd just call her and tell her I got a new boat...and a new place to live, then see how long it takes her to find me! Wouter, you need a roomate? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Nice job on the racing Dermot!
Last edited by Timbo; 08/13/06 07:03 PM.
Blade F16 #777
| | | Re: The Magic Formula for a Successful Class ?
[Re: Timbo]
#82303 08/14/06 11:51 AM 08/14/06 11:51 AM |
Joined: Jul 2005 Posts: 13 Netherlands Blonde_Dolly
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Posts: 13 Netherlands | Good question and topic Phill.
Reading the comments and input I see some really good remarks. I like what Timbo is writing.
One of my favorite’s examples of how not to do it, is the one of the Windsurfing industry, which goes as follows:
In the late 70’s and early 80’s windsurfing was really hot <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />. Around here (I grew up in Zandvoort, the Netherlands about 500 meters from the beach and had the opportunity to learn cat sailing and windsurfing age 10 <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />)on a good windsurfing day you would see about 100 to 150 windsurfers going wild on the North sea. This little village even facilitated the windsurfing Pro’s tournament once a year for quite some years in a row. I am talking about the good old days with guys like Pete Cabrina and Robby Naish.
In that same period everybody who wanted to surf could buy/ rent a (cheap) board and sail, take some lessons and just go out and do their thing. Age and budget did not matter! In the Netherlands we had tens of thousand of windsurfers
Than the designers and manufacturers made a horrible mistake to concentrate on the top level of windsurfers only. Within just a couple of years it was close to impossible to buy/ rent a decent starters board and sail. This sport managed to whipe out the complete starters and lower segment of the market. By the end of the 80’s and early 90’s windsurfers became a rare species, and this was before kite surfing became popular.
Bottom line is that even for a high performance class like the F16 one should not forget to facilitate newcomers (for the F16 class and cat sailing in general). This should not prevent the class from any developments and evolution but one should consider that only a small number of people will be able to keep up the pace if developments go to fast.
Regards,
Frank Blade NED 013
Flying Hull
| | | Re: The Magic Formula for a Successful Class ?
[Re: Mary]
#82305 08/14/06 01:09 PM 08/14/06 01:09 PM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | Frank, you are correct, (and I used to windsurf way back in 1983) you must have an entry level to feed the top level or the sport will quickly die. I would be interested to see the Hobie sales numbers for the Wave and H16 vs. the Tiger and other top end boats. I'll bet they sell many more of the Waves and H16's.
I have often thoght the Wave would make a much better entry level sailboat than the Opti. You can put more than one kid on it and you can even put a parent with a couple children on it. My kids did not like the Opti because they did not like being alone in a very small boat. (Scared an Alligator would eat them!) But they liked the Wave we rented.
Also for any class to be successful, it needs a means to comunicate, so I thank Mary and Rick for the magazine and this web site! Without them I would still be racing lead mines...slowly going nowhere at great expense. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Last edited by Timbo; 08/14/06 02:59 PM.
Blade F16 #777
| | | Re: The Magic Formula for a Successful Class ?
[Re: Timbo]
#82306 08/14/06 02:12 PM 08/14/06 02:12 PM |
Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 9 Clinton Lake, Kansas flatlander
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stranger
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Posts: 9 Clinton Lake, Kansas | What has happened with the G-Cat?
qoute The stirdy boardless design is especially attractive to recreational sailors who seek high performance combined with practical family use. qoute
I think this platform, expandable to a full F16 and the talk of a rental model (a step up from a Wave) are excellent ideas. Would a G-Cat without a spinnaker be as much fun as an H16 for starter/family boat? I'd think so, and easier to use with the self tacking jib. There seems to be a recreational sailor and casual racer fear of the third sail (gennaker). Consequently the sailor of the F16 will most likely come from another class. We here can hope it's not from a multihull class, but a keel or centerboard. The only thing better than what you've got going right now would be a direct entry level boat, ala the G Cat concept.
John
H20 532
| | | Re: The Magic Formula for a Successful Class ?
[Re: flatlander]
#82307 08/14/06 02:36 PM 08/14/06 02:36 PM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | The prototype G cat F16 and another 5.0 G cat are both listed in the Classifieds here.
Last edited by Timbo; 08/14/06 02:39 PM.
Blade F16 #777
| | | Re: The Magic Formula for a Successful Class ?
[Re: grob]
#82309 08/15/06 09:14 PM 08/15/06 09:14 PM |
Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 2,921 Michigan PTP
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Posts: 2,921 Michigan | How can you build on something as a sport when a new set of daggerboards for a boat costs 1500$$$ ?
p.s. I in NO WAY mean to criticize the blade or any cat for that matter (because a blade is my dream boat, honestly), but what is entry level about that? I guess you could say the f16 isn't "entry level" for that matter, but then again, neither is the 6.0, infusion, tiger, N20 or capricorn. So what is entry level? The beat up H16 that requires hours of glass work to make sail worthy? Or a wave? I agree that wave OD racing has to be good, but if you really want to get someone interested in cat sailing would you take them out on a wave or something more "high performance?"
Last edited by PTP; 08/15/06 09:19 PM.
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