from Sailing Anarchy "Rumors and Lies:"

Banned Again?

Looks like a bit of a witch hunt for the R 33 cat. Now we hear that Long Beach Yacht Club's BOD (the club sponsoring the races that the
R33's capsized in recently), met in private session last week and voted to exclude the R33s from Wet Wednesdays immediately, but allow them to finish the remaining races in the 2006 Channel Island Series. For 2007 they are instituting a new rule excluding all boats that cannot self-right.

Yes, that would be all multihulls, assuming they are clear on the
distinction between self-right and self-rescue. The Long Beach Yacht Club is a big money club heavily involved with top level mono racing. A sailing insider says "LBYC is a major force in SoCal racing and other clubs may look to them as leaders."

There are all sorts of rumors of personal agendas, personal grievances, political maneuvering, and influence from influential people. On the other hand it may simply have been a "ban them all and let God sort them out" type of decision. "It's the only way to be sure". LBYC did not respond to ORCA inquiries before their decision, nor has a statement been issued. All reports are verbal until a copy of the minutes becomes available for public review.

Will there be a domino effect?

07/11/06

Its all a matter of who has the power/control of there... I wish more people would look at the Farrier Marine web page. "Its a matter of safety" article would clarify alot of unanswered questions.

thom

I heard that randy reynolds built the boat a couple of feet narrower than melvin and morrelli deisgned it to be so that it would fit in a conventional slip. Maybe should have thought a little harder before marketing it as a family friendly racer/cruiser. Such a tender boat should have EXPERIENCED multihull sailors aboard.

Tammy,

I don't think there will be much of a domino effect...it is certainly unfortunate. The problem is that the R33 is a pretty narrow for the amount of power it has - I believe that even Mr Reynolds flipped one recently (I could be mistaken on this). Point is...it is very unlike the Corsairs or Farrier trimarans.

I think if the Reynolds guys get a self righting technique worked out, or start building them wider, they'll get past this hurdle.

It is and has been offered in a wider version.
Rick

The original design was 16'. There was a turbo edition that was 18' with a taller stick. At that time there was also a sport edition that had a 14 beam and a short rig, for the cruising minded with slip requirements. But then the standard boat became the 14' beam with the taller rig. This was described first as being able to raise the hull earlier and therefore faster than the wider beam (described to me as think of a large A-Cat), with a second benefit of fitting in a slip.

They will build you just about any config you want, but the standard for OD remains the 14' beam with tall rig.

Okay, so which version were the ones that have been capsizing?

the 14' OD configuration.

The first one that capsized was a 16' and I do believe the 18' config has also capsized.

Mostly the 14' beam tall rig standard model. Although there was also a capsize of the 18' tall rig turbo.

There's been quite the discussion on this (multiple threads) on Sailing Anarchy, with some taking the position of "if you're scared of it and don't have the skills, don't sail it" and others of the "this is bad behavior for such a design, you're going to get us banned and our insurance cancelled".

Some feel it is being marketed as an all around family boat when it is really too powerfull to be marketed that way.

But, given the number of boats sailing, there have been more capsizes than other designs. From those of us familiar with Farrier's boats and methodologies it seems excessive, but...

On an intersting note about perceptions - I Googled for F-27 capsizes and found a Dragonfly forum where they were discussing their feelings that the Farrier boats were too high-strung and prone to capsize...

the 18 ft config capsized off dana pt ca.

There is one HUGE fact that everyone is missing. Each and every time one of these boats has gone over is due to OPERATOR ERROR. They were each preceded by someone leaving a spin or main sheet unattended and the boat gets a gust with no way to release and over they go. I believe that when Randy flipped the main sheet became tangled in the traveler and over she goes. I don't believe the boat is prone to flipping such as a beach cat, but with inexperienced people on the helm and unattended sheets the inevitable is going to happen. Until people realize that this isn't a family cruiser or a fricking Hobie 16 and pay attention accordingly then this problem will not go away.

My .02$

Martin

Agreed - it's no toy...but are you calling Randy inexperienced?

Before I paint a bad picture for myself...I REALLY like the boat - I've briefly sailed on one and helped break it down for the trailer. It is a bad-butt ride and I don't agree with them being banned. HOWEVER, when a boat that big and difficult to right is flipping at the rate they are, it makes it harder and harder to argue about it. Consider what the race committee has to contend with to ensure the safety of those on board and answer to the coasties.

By comparison,
The Lightspeed 32 is 18'wide and at least as badass, if not more. If cat racing is going to make inroads into the mono fleet, which I would like to see, we have to look like we can handle ourselves.

The occasional flip (I have seen an f31r flip at the finish line in newport) does not seem to hurt the general yachting communities opinion of multis and the people who sail them. But the reynolds situation clearly is detrimental to all of us, and ultimately those who haven't experienced the sheer joy of the wild thing.
charlie

I just noticed that tid-bit...now that sucks...and proves the point that this has already gone too far and now is affecting other classes. I have a question though...when a keel falls off one of those mono-hulls, do they no longer fit within the "self-righting" bit?

Why do you think its the RC problem?? Its faulty logic like this that drives up insurance premiums for clubs!

Race Committe's run the nuts and bolts of the race... the decision to race and the seamanship required is up to the captain of the boats. The problem of a flippy boat is for the other competitors in a race... If the boat is flipped and they sail by.. they must stop and render assistance until the situation is under control... While they will get redress... by an large their race is over (no fun for them). They probably think that the hassel of racing with a flippy boat is too much to cope with. So this becomes a club or regional sailing authority decision as they balance the competing interests and evaluate the accident.

Why do you think it is a Coast Guard problem with the RC either?... Unless you are sending the fleet into a restricted area... They don't determine whether a sailor is allowed out on the water or not. You don't need a permit to conduct a sailboat race because you don't obstruct the protected uses (channel access).

So, we face a similar issue with a multiclass yacht club regatta. The beach cats have raced in multiclass monohull dinghy regattas on the bay for 15 + years. We have added three additional multiclass events to the schedule in recent years and they want us back!!! Despite a long and peacfull record of coexistence... one club decided that beach cats were unsafe in the mix at their regatta based on a collision last year between an inexperieced P16 driver and a monohull lighting who was encroaching on the starting area and in the wrong place..... Bottom line.. the club said done and gone to the cats... They balanced the threat that the lighnings would not come back to the regatta with the loss of the cat fleet. What do you say to them... It was an accident... !$@ happens... the Lighning should have respected the cat fleet and stayed clear of the line.

It seems to us that the best you can do is send them data which refutes their impression that Cats cause accidents!

I think that is where the R33 fleet is at right now. The R33 on the Cheseapeake Bay flipped in a passage to a race. A combination of events led to the problem... a big factor was an undiscovered leak that had filled the hull with enough water to accentuate the stuff. It was an accident!

This boat has also set course records in 25 to 30 in the Gov Cup with no problems....

So.... what do you say about the possibility of accidents and a fleets participation in an event? This is a tough one!

Mind you.. I would argue that if 6 or 7 Penguins flipped (Bail them out to right them) or Snipes or Albacores or any other traditional monohull... The RC would be swamped because they could not render assistance in that extreme circumstance... However 6 or 7 cats flipped will most likely get them selves up and going again. These accidents are nominally the same but really different on the water.

So accidents have to evaluated in context... certainly the R33 owners will avoid accidents at all costs cause its expensive and they loose their boat for repairs.

I hope that the organizing community don't just listen to a few loud voices clammoring for a blanket ban.

Legally, no, it's not the RC's fault - but that's not what I'm getting at. When a 33' catamaran flips and the Coast Guard comes in to assist in the righting of the boat are you really saying that it puts NO burden on the RC or the Coast Guard? Fact is, it's a huge headache for everyone involved (certainly including the sailors). Your acting like the RC claps their hands in the air and go home when they would have normally and/or the last "upright" boat finishes. When these things happen they create a huge hazzard for the people onboard. You don't think the Coast Guard would have a conversation with the organizing authority after the race? For heaven's sake it JUST happened after the Statue Race when the CG assisted the RC30 and I strongly suspect that there will be a "self-righting" stipulation in the Statue race next year.

We have a responsibility to make sure we're not, intentionally or unintentionally, putting an extra burden and concern on those who put on these events or would come to our rescue. If we do not take good care of this responsibility, things like this will happen.

That said, I'll be the first SOB in line to buy one when this lottery ticket hits. I'll also keep enough of a bank roll to get the tow boat out for righting assistance for that brief second when JC and Kenny loose focus. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Some points about the Statue Race.

The statue race is unique because you ARE racing in controlled water.. its the harbor. The RC30 flipped and became a hazzard to navigation so the coasties were involved.. AND the RC 30 is supposed to have a self righting system.. and I was told by the crew that it broke in the crash... (something about a tube that I did not quite follow).


And yes, I am sure the RC is concerned about the saftey of the sailors... but concern for and responsibility for are different.
BTW
What's the conversation... Coastie WHY are you holding a race... its windy out here?.... RC.. Yes... we are holding a race because its windy! Coastie... Stop the race because boats have crashed! RC... How do you propose I stop the race... The sailors race at their discression not mine... What do you want me to do? Coastie... but but but..

I agree with you completely that we must act responsibly or we risk a lot of good will. So I think the discussion is informative and clarifys your thinking (certainly my thinking on the issues)

When would you have the RC cancel a leg of a distance race because of too much wind or seas?

CRAC sets it up so that the sailors vote and the majority rules.... not the RC decides. Then each skipper can decide for himself.

Mark

I think we're pretty much in agreement here.

Jake lets take this a little further. The argument would be that the boats are stable as long as they don't flip, mono's are stable as long as the keel stays on! A valid point can be made for most anything.

The issue is that the boats are being pushed extra hard and being sailed on the edge. With the power of the rigs and narrow beam (relative) I can see how this happens. My Stiletto is 14' wide but also 6' shorter. I feel the beam to width ratio is proportionate for its stability. Its also relative as to how much risk you are willing to take for speed. My first boat (TheMightyHobie18), I sailed/raced with my girlfriend/wife for 12+ years. Never flipped with her on it, made for a good relationship. On the other hand, my first race with my nephew we went over big time. Its all in how you push the boat/test your limits!

So my answer is you want to push it hard, make it wider. Otherwise stay as is and take your chances.

JMO,

Clayton

Not totally true. In at least one of them under main and jib only, the main was manned and released. The jib wasn't, however.

You can always blame the sailors. However, the capsize record is what it is - either other multis have infinitely better sailors driving them, or this is a boat that requires more attention at the helm. A good portion of the R33 crashes have been with experienced drivers.