At the Annapolis boat show I talked briefly with the people at the Hobie display, one from Hobie and one from Backyard Boats. I asked them that given the upsurge we've had in cat racing in the Galesville area (right around the corner from a Backyard Boats Hobie dealership) was there any interest in them getting involved? We've built an A-Cat fleet and now an Inter-20 fleet, I bet if a Tiger started showing up (or even a 16 or 20) they might get some interest as well. Answers were along the line of "the day of a bizillion cats at a race is over", and the "roto-molded stuff is selling like hotcakes". So, no interest at all in trying to revitalize their base in an area where cat sailing has been working to come back. What a shame and lost opportunity.

That having been said, I did like the kayak/trimaran, actually thought about it as something to get my Dad back on the water. Beyond that, not much interest for me in what they had to offer.

When we see the Getaway doing a reprise of the Hobie-18 movie flying off the breakers in the surf at Hawaii maybe I'll be interested in it. But for me, for the price, I'd probably still rather have the 18 magnum.

Bill

Don't loose site of the larger picture. Getting catamaran sailors up to Catamaran racers requires an organization that supports them.

We (as a large group) have a problem now. If the entry boat is going rotomolded and we, the racing organizations don't have a way to support those guys... How do they work their way up to the performance boats?

You said yourself, the 6.0's were gone... no fun racing... nobody else to play with. I will find something else.
You stayed with cats... but many others won't.

Its a problem.

If the world is moving to
Tornados
A Cats
F18's
F16's, one and two up.
Hobie 16's.

And the dealers are not supporting the Hobie 16's... the entry will be blocked.

Brining new familys into racing cats is all about money. Name one new racing cat under $10,000. That's where most family recreation budgets end. Name one that you can sucessfully race with your young kids. That is why the Wave, Getaway and Hobie 16, all well under $10K and family race able, are selling. Not too many Dad's can shell out $25,000 for a Tornado or even $15K for a new F18 to use as a learning boat.

The Dart 16 is an excellent dual purpose (recreation and racing) boat but unless they start making them over here, will be too expensive to import. If someone could come up with a $6,000 Dart 16 type boat, double traps and not so prone to pitch poleing, I think it would sell. But that is what the Hobie Getaway is, right? Does it have twin traps?

I am going to respectfully disagree with that, if you listen to people who go to the holiday resorts that use the roto cats the kids love them, they do think they are cool, (although they don't have the opportunity to sail a GRP cat for comparison). They love the speed, the stability the fact that they can get a dozen mates on them, and that they can trapese in relative safety. I know many people here don't think of them as high performance boats, but in comparison to alot of the other boats at the resorts they "kick butt".

Gareth

What about the Escape Playcat, that only weighed about 90kg, so it was also pretty light for a rotomoulded cat. Do they still sell them?

Gareth

We dont need new racing cat below US$10k to recruit beginners. Newcomers to racing dont need to spend that sort of money, any old cat will do to learn how to sail and race well. New racers will not do any worse on an old platform..

Racers are driven to improve. A rotomolded cat that anyone can sail on their first day will not challenge people with the racer make up. They will outgrow it quickly. A Rotomolded boat cannot be repaired by owners, can be dented and is less stiff than fiberglass.

It's a big FU to the people that buy the new cats and promote the sport, the racers.

I saw one last Saturday, as just arrived, complete with slightly hollowed bottom. It felt hollow although the owner said it was "flattened for planing". There is print-through of the 1/2 inch cubes of foam under the deck, which is an interesting textural element. Ditto underneath in places, so the bottom is not exactly faired flat.
Also I looked underneath, and it looked slightly vee-d rather than hollow.
Note the curious use of English here, COPIED exactly from the Nacra A2/A3 advertisement:

You may also purchased your NACRA A3 thru a participating dealer:

Shipping maybe cheaper, when ship with other boats.
Safer shipping if the dealer receives boats per container.
Dealers have more experience with accepting freight thru common carrier
Advice on assembly or contract to assemble

I then wondered aloud--- "Hmmm---From which part of the world did the person who wrote this come?" Also, "Is that where they were made too?????"

Tim,




I don't know about the wave and getaway but this Dart 16 (no spi or other race things) costs 7550 Euro already. That would be 9600 US$ ex shipping although the tax deduction will take of that somewhat. Add a spinnaker (pretty much a must have in racing today) and this rotomolded cat will easily pass the 10.000 mark. Even with spi it will be noticeably slower then a non spi Hobie 16, not to mention significantly more expensive. If this cat could be had at 6000 US$ or less then yes I think there would be a case. But it doesn't appear this Dart 16 fits this requirement.

Also it is my experience that the hulls themself are not a large enough component to really save money on. It is not like you can drop the price of a decent cat design by opting for rotomolded hulls. The vast majority of cost is still labour and small components like cleats and blocks. It is truly remarkable how quickly small items can add up.

Even if you could make the hulls for free then the price of a new boat will never drop more then 30 %. All the rest is still taken up by fittings, sails, labour and profit margin.

If you are really cutting down on the fittings and such then you'll quickly get away from the "racing cat" requirement. There is no easy way out of this trap.

Ohh, remember the SL16 youth boat project that was to solve these issues. Being inexpensive was a key ISAF criterium. Despite the fact that its cost is a very well kept secret, online quotes range from 11.000 to 14.000 Euro's. With the younger quotes all ending up in the high end of the range.

There is no quick fix here.

I'm still saying the best fix was the nacra 500 with spi. It wouldn't have been extremely cheap, but both faster and cheaper then the SL16 and the youth would have had a decent second hand boat market to get started. At 10.500 Euro's (no spi) is a quite a good boat for a decent price. And I think it is well worth the 3000 Difference with the laser 16.

Wouter

You obviously have never raced Rick White on a wave. What challenges a racer is not the boat it's the competition. It's difficult to sail a wave very well and easy to sail a Tornado very badly. Racers do not outgrow their boats (After all these years they are still finding new ways to make the H-16 go faster). Racers may move on to other classes looking for more performance but it’s not because they have mastered their previous boat.

I would also add that the use of roto-moulded boats by resorts is a great way to introduce a broad audience to cat sailing. Some of them may find their way onto the race course.

The Dart 16 is bulletproof. I used to sail it up the ramp and catch air and land it in the parking lot. In the promotional video, they dropped one from a crane in the parking lot.

Denting isnt a concern.

It might melt if you got it next to a blow torch, but it wont dent, even if you hit it with your car.

Bill

"Bringing new familys into racing cats is all about money. Name one new racing cat under $10,000."
"If someone could come up with a $6,000 Dart 16 type boat, double traps and not so prone to pitch poleing, I think it would sell."
Tim, those are interesting thoughts. I`d suggest looking at the design of the Mosquito for reference, not suggesting that it would work in the US market, but the principle is there : It`s 4,9m (16ft), has vacuum-formed foam sandwich epoxy hulls with kevlar and carbon reinforcing, weighs 105kg (230lbs I think)fully rigged with twin traps and spinnaker. It has mylar main & jib and a spi, a moderately sized sailplan (maybe too small for US light winds ?), but it`s relatively cheap due to the fact that you buy the hulls, sails and mast extrusion (blank) and then with a bit of labour (easy assembly) you have a lightweight 16ft racer with spin & double traps. They are very strong although not rotomoulded (thank goodness), but do have daggerboards. The beams are square tubing aluminium, available from any aluminium supplier. The boat was designed as a home-built plywood boat and has evolved into semi-professional construction (hulls and sails are pro-built, the rest you can put together yourself).
We can put one together in SA for about $6800, or R50 000 (our pathetic currency <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)
Of course it`s no I-20 or F18 killer, but to get folks into racing affordably once they have tasted catsailing at a resort on a plastic boat, it might just be a more affordable option than a Dart 16 or Hobie Getaway, and is way faster than both, ISAF rating (unofficial) is around 1.14, based on it`s specs. (faster than a Hobie 16).
Of course it requires that you do some work to get sailing, you don`t buy one off the factory floor complete, but then that is why the cost can be kept reasonable (for comparison a Hobie 16 costs around 35% more in SA, and you get a lot less for your money).
Attached pic of our new National Champs, Miles & Darryn, both 18 years old. (The boat is well suited to youth and female crew combinations, which is good for getting FAMILIES sailing together.)

Steve

Steve, that's a very nice looking boat. I'm not sure if American Dads have time to do all the work of putting it together, especially if they are new to cat sailing and don't understand what the end product is supposed to be. But maybe if it were sold as a kit with a DVD on how to properly assemble it.

One thing I've never understood is why parents will spend $3,000 for a new "Racing" Opti for little Billy or Sally, but the parents can't sail with them! For the same $3,000 they could buy a Wave and both of them could sail, or put Billy and Sally on the Wave together. And with the Wave, they won't outgrow it as quickly.

I have always thought that Hobie should take a truck full of Waves to a big Opti regatta (like the Opti Nationals, 300 boats) and GIVE them away to the top finishers in each Opti class, rent out the rest, then have a Wave regatta the next day with Mom or Dad on board and the kid driving. Once the kids see how much faster the Wave is, (and maybe they could add a trap and teach them how to do it) I think Mom and Dad would be more inclined to pony up a few more bills for a larger version, like the Dart or Getaway.

I expected the Wave to do for Cats what the Opti has done for mono's, but it never caught on as well. Why? No racing class for kids? No Kid promotion from Hobie? Both? I used to teach kids in Optis and the single biggest complaint I heard from the kids was how slow they are. the second most heard complaint was they could only go out alone. My 4 kids tried a rental Wave at a motel and they were hooked on cats immediately. We sold their Opti and bought a used Hobie 14 for $500, added a trap for $50. Why any kid would rather sail an Opti is beyond me but look at how big their class is!


But when it comes to building a boat at home, not too many American Dads have the time or desire to stick to it. If they can buy it ready to go, online, then maybe they will.

Hi Tim,
Sadly I think the only way of bringing costs down would be to have some level of self-assembly, otherwise you are paying someone else his labour rate to assemble it for you. If I`m not mistaken, you can buy a Blade from Vectorworks to any level of completion, from hulls only to a full boat, and choose your own fittings, sailmaker etc. This is the way to go to reduce costs, but requires some effort. I can understand that a new sailor would feel apprehensive about doing some self-assembly without assistance of some sort.
Our class actually has some folks who were not catsailors before buy the plans and build the whole boat themselves, including plywood hulls. The class "leaders" put a lot of time in to answer questions and go round to the newbies house to help them put their boats together the best way. One such boat was out racing last weekend, with a more experienced skipper helming, helping the new Mozzie sailor to learn the ropes. That is what makes our class successful, we don`t have huge numbers but we always help eachother out.

The success of classes such as the Optimist are based on these principles - in the formative years dad could build an Opti for his kid in a few weekends. Although this has changed, they have reached critical mass and have a huge international presence, with too many boats at a worlds to count, this makes them the boat of choise for aspiring young racers. Many of the guys on America`s Cup boats started on Optimists, while most Hobie (or any cat) sailor stays with catsailing, so cats are not seen as stepping stones to bigger things.

Steve- that's a great looking boat, and I've often thought that kind of a concept might a good way to build up the cat ranks. Especially if a club was available to help people get their boats completed. The club could advertise a group buy, and in the Spring hold "build days" where people could work on their boats together.

Steve,

Stuff must be really inexpensive over there in SA. I ran the numbers on a Blade last year, as you say, just assemble it myself. By the time I buy out the steering system, daggers and superwing mast (AHPC) AND three sails, battens, pole, snuffer AND two hulls I'm easily at your $6,800 USD, and there's still a lot of parts left to purchase (beam, boom, blocks, rigging, tramp, etc.) It was hard to see how it could be done for much less than $10K. Other than the superwing mast (and some dimensions) is there that much difference between the Mosquito and F16 class?

Our exchange rate with the Australia is crap, maybe we're looking in the wrong direction?

I think that's why all the big cruising cats are being built in South Africa. It's cheaper.

Building a boat from the ground up is a lot of work, but not impossible if one just want to do it. But it is probably not something a lot of people "just want to do". As Wouter and John expressed, you dont really save a lot by doing it this way either. Buying a used boat, or fixing a boat somebody has had in their backyard for 10 years is probably the cheapest way to become a boat owner. When we bought our Marstrøm Tornado, we bought it as a co-ownership. It has been very succesful as we both have wanted to sail and race the boat often.

For a cheap F-16 project:
Home build hulls in ply.
Get all deck hardware, crossbeams and rig from a broken cat.
Homebuild foils and ruddersystem.
Design, cut and build your own jibs and mains.
Buy a spi kit pre-cut from a sailmaker and assemble at home.
Learn a ton about your boat, boats in general and sails in the progress and have a unique craft. You can also say "PRRRRRR" in the general direction of the "consumer society".

If one begins estimating how much $$ you would have made by working instead of building on the boat, it is not worth it! You need the right mindset and enjoy the experience to succeed. Finding the right sources of materials also take time, but it is well worth it for later projects.

Assembling is much easier, but again it takes some determination and initative. I dont think the "consumer society" is able to buy into the idea unless there is a certain amount of group thinking and support going on, like what Steve describes from SA.

Hi John,
You may be right, Australia is not a cheap place to buy stuff from, for us anyway, due to our crap currency.
Differences between the Mosquito and the full F16 boats like Blade or Taipan are minor, but can all add up to increased costs. Hull length is 100mm (4inches) shorter, mast is quite short, only 7,3m compared to the F16`s 8,5m,and is a smaller section. sail area is less : 12,5sqm main (F16 = 15sqm), 3,7sqm jib (=F16), 13sqm spinnaker (F16 = 17,5sqm). Due to the finer shaped hulls with lower bouyancy and the narrow beam (2,185m as opposed to 2,5m F16) the Mosquito won`t really carry much bigger sailplan, and where we sail we seldom need more sail area, sometimes less would be good.
Timbo is right, it is cheaper to build boats here than in US, Aus, or Eu, hence the export of large cats all over the world from SA, but I think the standard of workmanship on these boats is exceptionally high, the boatbuilding industry here is pretty well respected worldwide.
It is strange that we can build boats more cheaply, since we import almost all the raw materials, and pay dollars / euros for them - sailcloth, fibreglass cloth, resins and foam are mostly imported, as is our plywood for any home-built projects.
The Mosquito class association has made good friends with our builder, sailmaker, and other suppliers, by staying with these suppliers and supporting them. The hulls and daggerboards are top quality and built by the most respected small-boat builder in SA, hulls cost around R15 000($2000).Home-built timber hulls will cost around half that. I think daggerboards are around R3 500 ($500)
Masts we had a die made for, and have runs of 30 or so masts made up, held in stock and sold to members at no profit, the association buys directly from the aluminium supplier, so there is no middlemen taking profits. I believe the bare extrusion is around R1 500 ($200). We have to send it for anodising and fit it out with spreaders and all fittings, takes about a day. The cross-beams are rectangular tubing aluminium, also from any aluminium supplier, again you must anodise, cut to length and fit out yourself with mast step, dolphin striker and fittings. Not sure of the cost, I`m guessing bare beams are around R500 ($70) Spi pole is round tubing, buy it in 6m lengths and you have two, one spare, or share the cost with a friend and get one each.
Rudders and stocks can be made yourself, but we have mostly gone with Dotans - again, one sailor imported a set, we liked them, and put in a bulk order with Dotan who gave us a very good price. All we had to do was remove old pintles, fill holes, drill new holes for new pintles, and the Dotans are on ! about a days work, if you stop for beer often (as one does.) cost around R4 500 ($600) They are actually expensive for us, costing around 10% of the total boat cost.
Sails and trampoline - we had North sails do the development of our sails, and put in bulk orders with them, so they give us a better price. We ordered 7 spinnakers in one go, the same applied. I think sails, spinnaker and trampoline come in at R10 000 ($1350).
Spreaders, mast step, dolphin striker are all made by a mast manufacturer and are supplied directly from them, no middlemen. Not sure of the cost, around R800 ($110)
Almost all the fittings are imported, Ronstan mostly as it`s cheaper than Harken. I`m not sure of the costs of fittings, rope etc, but I`m now at around R35 500 excluding those ($5000), you might just get change from R50 000.
If you home-build hulls, daggerboards,rudders and stocks, you could save another R12 000, so you could have a competitive Mosquito for around R40 000 ($5 400).
What we have done is have the class association act as a "Dealer" and securing parts sources for the members at factory-direct prices, but with no intent on making a profit. This business model would not work for Hobie or Nacra, or anyone else, which is why you pay more for catamarans. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Oh yes, and the boat that Miles and Darryn are on in the pic I posted, the one they won the Nationals on - it`s a home-built plywood boat.

I am game for a boat like that.