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by '81 Hobie 16 Lac Leman. 11/11/22 12:11 PM
Spinnaker on Nacra 5.2; halyard fouls when (un)furling jib
by '81 Hobie 16 Lac Leman. 11/11/22 11:50 AM
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Re: What do you tow with [Re: MauganN20] #88864
11/15/06 08:23 AM
11/15/06 08:23 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
veteran
Keith  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Quote
Quote
I would think long and hard about getting a VW Passat when I need a new Car


Ancedotal, I know, but my little sister has a 2005 VW Jetta, and its a giant POS.

As for efficency, the Diesel Golf can get 72mpg. Thats better than most hybrids. Thankfully the US has updated their diesel laws to allow these kinds of cars into the country soon.

(something about the sulfur content in the US Diesel wouldn't work on these cars)


US emission standards require a cleaner diesel formulation and cleaner running engines. Car companies are working on this, as are the oil companies. Some of the newer formulations for diesel actually start with natural gas instead of oil.

The potential for diesel engines is high (witness Audi at LeMans), and diesel/electric hybrids are another great thing on the horizon.

Another problem for diesel passenger cars in America is that a lot of people remember the absolute crap that Detroit put out in the 70's for diesel passenger cars. Fortunately those memories are starting to fade.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: What do you tow with [Re: Eric Anderson] #88865
11/15/06 08:47 AM
11/15/06 08:47 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 270
Nepean (Ottawa) Ontario Canada
Frozen Offline
enthusiast
Frozen  Offline
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Posts: 270
Nepean (Ottawa) Ontario Canada
Eric

I had a Diesel Rabbit back in 1978 when they first came out in Canada. It got around 60 mpg <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> (Imperial gallon which is about 20% bigger than an American Gallon)

It was a dog on the highway <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> especially when it had a few miles on it. It would smoke like crazy <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> when accelerating to pass on the highway. I cannot imagine getting it up to even 150 KPH (93 mph)

Had a few wierd problems. When condensation formed on the windows it would drip down to the fuse panel and eventually it would corrode the steel fuse posts and then the corrosion would run and short out the next fuse item which would create interesting "ghost in the Machine" sort of stuff. You'd be driving along when suddenly the horn would blast for awhile and then the wipers would dance for awhile. Apparently some people had the starter operate while the car was parked in gear with disasterous results.

Then one day I had happen what I had read about. I was cruising down the highway when it started to accelerate on it's own. The family was aboard and I was confused about what was happening. I took my foot off of the pedal but it was on auto-accelerate. I then put the brake on but it was determined to accelerate to destruction and I had to press very firmly on the brake to get it to stop. Had I not done this I would have had a diesel bomb. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

You see what was happening was that the extremely high compression ratio in the engine (and other reasons) had damaged the rings. This allowed the pressure from combustion to blow by and theoretically this should vent out the crankcase vent to the atmosphere. But the crankcase was vented to the intake to keep emissions down and when you got the right conditions the frothing oil in the crankcase vented out the crank vent into the engine. So now since diesels run on oil, it didn't need the accelerator to get fuel. Voila, Rabbit Cleared for Take off.. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

They no doubt fixed the fuse problems as they probably got sued, but the other problem I have not heard of since.


Cheers
Alan F

Tiger
Re: What do you tow with [Re: waterbug_wpb] #88866
11/15/06 08:54 AM
11/15/06 08:54 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline
old hand
_flatlander_  Offline
old hand

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
Quote
Didn't the old VW Rabbit diesel get about 45 mpg? I drove one a few times in the late 80's and it was a no-frills little zippy car. Of course, this was compared to my "Big Daddy Mac" Chevy Chevette.... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


A co-worker of mine owned a 1979 model Rabbit diesel. He commuted 52 miles, each way, and used exactly 2 gallons per day. He was by no means a lead foot.

It's most interesting that fuel efficiency of vehicles has been proven all over the world for 60 years (including manufacturers familiar to US such as Ford & GM) and only after government regulations has mileage of the US models changed.


John H16, H14
Re: What do you tow with [Re: Frozen] #88867
11/15/06 08:54 AM
11/15/06 08:54 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
Carpal Tunnel
PTP  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
Quote
Eric

I had a Diesel Rabbit back in 1978 when they first came out in Canada. It got around 60 mpg <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> (Imperial gallon which is about 20% bigger than an American Gallon)

It was a dog on the highway <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> especially when it had a few miles on it. It would smoke like crazy <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> when accelerating to pass on the highway. I cannot imagine getting it up to even 150 KPH (93 mph)

Had a few wierd problems. When condensation formed on the windows it would drip down to the fuse panel and eventually it would corrode the steel fuse posts and then the corrosion would run and short out the next fuse item which would create interesting "ghost in the Machine" sort of stuff. You'd be driving along when suddenly the horn would blast for awhile and then the wipers would dance for awhile. Apparently some people had the starter operate while the car was parked in gear with disasterous results.

Then one day I had happen what I had read about. I was cruising down the highway when it started to accelerate on it's own. The family was aboard and I was confused about what was happening. I took my foot off of the pedal but it was on auto-accelerate. I then put the brake on but it was determined to accelerate to destruction and I had to press very firmly on the brake to get it to stop. Had I not done this I would have had a diesel bomb. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

You see what was happening was that the extremely high compression ratio in the engine (and other reasons) had damaged the rings. This allowed the pressure from combustion to blow by and theoretically this should vent out the crankcase vent to the atmosphere. But the crankcase was vented to the intake to keep emissions down and when you got the right conditions the frothing oil in the crankcase vented out the crank vent into the engine. So now since diesels run on oil, it didn't need the accelerator to get fuel. Voila, Rabbit Cleared for Take off.. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

They no doubt fixed the fuse problems as they probably got sued, but the other problem I have not heard of since.

I learned about that problem figuring out the diesel engine in my old Catalina 27. Supposedly the only way to stop the engine when it runs away like that is to clog the air intake. Never did "run away" though...

Re: What do you tow with [Re: _flatlander_] #88868
11/15/06 09:38 AM
11/15/06 09:38 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Quote
It's most interesting that fuel efficiency of vehicles has been proven all over the world for 60 years (including manufacturers familiar to US such as Ford & GM) and only after government regulations has mileage of the US models changed.


But it really hasn't. They're still building the same cars and the domestic manufacturers openly admit that they failed to recognize the demand for smaller, more fuel efficient, cars and they really don't have any attractive models in this area. There are really few attractive options if you want a car that can do better than 40mpg. Even the available hybrid's payback is not justifiable for the upcharge vs. the fuel savings.


Jake Kohl
Re: What do you tow with [Re: Jake] #88869
11/15/06 09:56 AM
11/15/06 09:56 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
F
fin. Offline
Carpal Tunnel
fin.  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
F

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
Quote
Quote
It's most interesting that fuel efficiency of vehicles has been proven all over the world for 60 years (including manufacturers familiar to US such as Ford & GM) and only after government regulations has mileage of the US models changed.


But it really hasn't. They're still building the same cars and the domestic manufacturers openly admit that they failed to recognize the demand for smaller, more fuel efficient, cars and they really don't have any attractive models in this area. There are really few attractive options if you want a car that can do better than 40mpg. Even the available hybrid's payback is not justifiable for the upcharge vs. the fuel savings.


I would guess that is because it is cheaper to add "assumed" value to their products through the power of advertising than by R&D. How many Ford, Chevy and Chrysler commercials do you see compared to Honda and Toyota?

There is a reason car companies spend so much money on advertising.

Re: What do you tow with [Re: fin.] #88870
11/15/06 10:09 AM
11/15/06 10:09 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 105
Bloomington, IN
jbecker Offline
member
jbecker  Offline
member

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 105
Bloomington, IN
Quote
Something noteworthy for all you "gas hog" guys!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15715744/?GT1=8717 Note that the article doesn't mention the word "cheap"!


Interesting article. While debunking peak oil they claim that oil production will peak in 20-25 years! Seems like the only difference between the authors and the strawman theory that they are debunking is the date of the peak. Another look at the CERA study: Congressional peak oil caucus responds to CERA study

Smaller vehicles do just fine towing beach cats. I have had no trouble with crosswinds or braking with my old Subaru wagon. The four wheel drive helps a bunch in marginal conditions, and I tend to run wider tires than stock which also helps. You lose more in highway mileage than a big vehicle because the boat sticks out into the airstream more. With a big truck, the boat is mostly in the wind shadow of the truck.


Jeff
Tiger 849
Re: What do you tow with [Re: Jake] #88871
11/15/06 10:13 AM
11/15/06 10:13 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 248
Colorado
SteveT Offline
enthusiast
SteveT  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 248
Colorado
Quote
Even the available hybrid's payback is not justifiable for the upcharge vs. the fuel savings.


And you can't tow with them without killing the mileage. I'm looking forward to the day that smaller diesel trucks are available in the U.S. The better torque from the diesel and increased overall performance from turbo makes them an excellent overall choice. In addition, bio-diesel fuels are a great option as an interim alternative to gas while the world comes up with something even better. I've burned bio-diesel in my truck and felt no noticable change in performance and it even smells a little better.


H-20 #896
Re: What do you tow with [Re: SteveT] #88872
11/15/06 10:49 AM
11/15/06 10:49 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 545
Brighton, UK
grob Offline
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grob  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 545
Brighton, UK
Quote
I've burned bio-diesel in my truck and felt no noticable change in performance and it even smells a little better.


mmm smells like chips <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />, Here in the UK many people illegelly run there diesel cars on chip fat bought from the local supermarket, this "fuel" does not suffer from the high tax associated with the stuff that comes from the pumps. This has become such a problem that supermarkets were asked to report people buying large quantities of cooking oil.

Quote
Do the sails move in unison? They look like windsurfer rigs.


Yes they are windsurfing sails and they can move indepentantly.

Gareth

Re: What do you tow with [Re: jbecker] #88873
11/15/06 10:49 AM
11/15/06 10:49 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
This is sort of the opposite of towing behind a small car where the hulls stick out into the airstream behind the small vehicle. But possibly the end result is the same. And I think it is relevant to the topic.

I think I mentioned this a long time ago on a similar thread about towing, but here goes again.

Rick and I have towed many thousands of miles using a motorhome -- all over the United States, Mexico and Canada.

Towing behind motorhomes can be a big problem because of all the turbulence coming off the flat back of the motorhome. We have so far broken two trailer tongues towing cats behind a motorhome. In both cases the trailers had long, straight tongues without triangulated stiffening arms, and I think this is an important factor.

The turbulence behind the motorhome would cause the trailer to oscillate back and forth and eventually break the tongue.

The scary thing about it is that the tongue breaks behind where the chains hold the trailer to the vehicle. So when the tongue breaks, the trailer is on its own.

That's why I am thinking that maybe those "Airtabs" would work on the back of a motorhome to decrease the turbulence for the trailer.

Re: What do you tow with [Re: grob] #88874
11/15/06 10:53 AM
11/15/06 10:53 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 545
Brighton, UK
grob Offline
addict
grob  Offline
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Brighton, UK
Although many people illegelly run there diesel cars on chip fat bought from the local supermarket,I don't advocate this on modern diesel cars as it does the fuel system no good at all.

Gareth

Re: What do you tow with [Re: Mary] #88875
11/15/06 11:05 AM
11/15/06 11:05 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacific....
hobie1616 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
hobie1616  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacific....
Quote
Towing behind motorhomes can be a big problem because of all the turbulence coming off the flat back of the motorhome. We have so far broken two trailer tongues towing cats behind a motorhome. In both cases the trailers had long, straight tongues without triangulated stiffening arms, and I think this is an important factor.

The turbulence behind the motorhme would cause the trailer to oscillate back and forth and eventually break the tongue.

The scary thing about it is that the tongue breaks behind where the chains hold the trailer to the vehicle. So when the tongue breaks, the trailer is on its own.

That's why I am thinking that maybe those "Airtabs" would work on the back of a motorhome to decrease the turbulence for the trailer.
Turbulence may be only part of the problem. You should also look at weight distribution on the trailers. Try moving the center of gravity forward or backwards to see if the oscillations change in frequency or stop. You may also want to look at moving the axle on the trailer.

If you do decide to modify the air flow you may want to consider a solid mud flap type panel or even one of those broom things that extend across the back of the RV below the rear bumper. That should reduce or eliminate air coming up off the rear of the RV and lifting the trailer.


US Sail Level 2 Instructor
US Sail Level 3 Coach
Re: What do you tow with [Re: hobie1616] #88876
11/15/06 11:31 AM
11/15/06 11:31 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Sorry. I did not want to hijack this thread, because it is not about trailering; it is about what vehicle you tow with. I was just interjecting the motorhome into it as a tow vehicle and some of the safety problems related to towing with a motorhome.

Re: What do you tow with [Re: Mary] #88877
11/15/06 11:34 AM
11/15/06 11:34 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 321
Albuquerque NM
Banzilla Offline
enthusiast
Banzilla  Offline
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Posts: 321
Albuquerque NM
Quote
Sorry. I did not want to hijack this thread, because it is not about trailering; it is about what vehicle you tow with. I was just interjecting the motorhome into it as a tow vehicle and some of the safety problems related to towing with a motorhome.


Strange, I thought it was about global oohh wait, never mind.


[b] Sail Like you have a Pair
Re: What do you tow with [Re: Banzilla] #88878
11/15/06 11:46 AM
11/15/06 11:46 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Okay, but nobody has yet talked about motorhomes, and I know lots of sailors use them for towing their boats to regattas.

Re: What do you tow with [Re: Banzilla] #88879
11/15/06 11:53 AM
11/15/06 11:53 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 306
St. Louis, MO
hobienick Offline
enthusiast
hobienick  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 306
St. Louis, MO
When looking for a tow vehicle, as mentioned by other, small cars are fine for beach cats. Major things to consider are the maximum GVW for the car and manual vs. auto tranny.

The GVW will indicate the ability of the car to stop the weight of itself and the trailer. A 5 passenger car full of people and baggage has to stop about the same weight as a 5 passenger car with only the driver and a medium sized beach cat.

Transmissions. I like manuals on cars for towing as I do not worry about overheating them as much as I would with an auto. With the auto you are constantly demanding more power for the extra weight which heats up the oil faster. And, you are probably going to be shifting gears quite often which wears out the tranny much faster. You also have more positive control with the manual.

Just my 2 cents.


Nick

Current Boat
Looking for one

Previous Boats
'84 H16
'82 H18 Magnum
'74 Pearson 30
St. Louis, MO
Re: What do you tow with [Re: hobienick] #88880
11/15/06 12:25 PM
11/15/06 12:25 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
I don't trust automatic transmissions. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Re: What do you tow with [Re: Mary] #88881
11/15/06 12:25 PM
11/15/06 12:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
Mary - the trailer occilations behind the motor home are caused by vortex shedding in the slipstream behind the motorhome.

A cool movie of the flow behind a square body (=motorhome) can be found here.

Aluminum trailers are particularly susceptible because, in addition to being light, they are flexible. When the tongue flexes too much, too many times, it breaks from fatigue.

The cure is to make the tongue stiffer. Trailex has done this over the years, but I attach my sailbox to the toungue, making it a structual part of the trailer to help stiffen it up.

Re: What do you tow with [Re: mbounds] #88882
11/15/06 12:34 PM
11/15/06 12:34 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Quote
Mary - the trailer occilations behind the motor home are caused by vortex shedding in the slipstream behind the motorhome.

A cool movie of the flow behind a square body (=motorhome) can be found here.

Aluminum trailers are particularly susceptible because, in addition to being light, they are flexible. When the tongue flexes too much, too many times, it breaks from fatigue.

The cure is to make the tongue stiffer. Trailex has done this over the years, but I attach my sailbox to the tougue, making it a structual part of the trailer to help stiffen it up.


I guess you are saying what I was saying, except you said it in a lot fewer words. Thanks.

Re: What do you tow with [Re: Mary] #88883
11/15/06 06:29 PM
11/15/06 06:29 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
arbo06 Offline
Pooh-Bah
arbo06  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
I'm saving up my money for one of these bad boyz.....

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