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Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #94015
01/05/07 03:27 PM
01/05/07 03:27 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
pbisesi Offline
enthusiast
pbisesi  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
John
Check these out
Katamaran
They seem to meet some of what you're after.
13ft long 6ft wide and 93 lbs for under $3,000

I'm assuming you're trying to find a way to get kids down to the water and sailing a cat without a big hassle, a trailer and with no mast up storage.

I don't think the original idea was to start an F12 class.
(Not that there's anything wrong with that) <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Pat Bisesi Fleet 204
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #94016
01/05/07 03:33 PM
01/05/07 03:33 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
windswept Offline
addict
windswept  Offline
addict

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
Having scarphed together 4mm marine grade plywood to build Tornado hulls, it is not the easiest task to accomplish. With that said, tortured plywood construction is not a bad way to go. When then bending the hulls into a deck jig, you can obtain the desired shape. Last time that I looked at my Tornados, they did not seem to look like chine hulls at all. So you could in fact look at the basic Tornado hull shapes from the Gougeon plans and scale those down. I know that the thought is to have a beginner boat here, but that does not mean that is has to be one that does not perform. Keep the rigging simple, but allow the hulls to have performance characteristics.


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: pbisesi] #94017
01/05/07 04:05 PM
01/05/07 04:05 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Pat,
I think the Katamaran Breeze looks like a great idea. Fits pretty much all the criteria. It's neat that they have an outboard bracket for it, too. I wrote and asked them a bunch of questions.

Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: windswept] #94018
01/05/07 04:35 PM
01/05/07 04:35 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


If a tortured ply hull design is made then I would sooner look at the Taipan or Blade building plans. They are closer in concept then the tornado hulls.

But as this is going to be a Formula setup I think it smart to work first on dead easy to build hulls and then later develop the more refined hulls. Gives builders a choice.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #94019
01/05/07 06:47 PM
01/05/07 06:47 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
I'm still wondering why the Hobie Wave doesn't fit this small, cost effective, easy to sail catamaran you guys are determined to design.


Jake Kohl
Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: windswept] #94020
01/05/07 06:48 PM
01/05/07 06:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
arbo06 Offline
Pooh-Bah
arbo06  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
http://www.intl-fiberglass.com/cheshire.html

What about the Cheshire Cat? 14 ft, simple, cheap.

Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: Jake] #94021
01/05/07 08:19 PM
01/05/07 08:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Hobie wave ?


118 kg ready to sail !

and therfore slower than a laser

Nough said

Lets forget about its retail price.


No disrespect intended towards the Wave class or Mary.

Wouter


Source : Hobie cat Wave specs

Last edited by Wouter; 01/05/07 09:04 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: _flatlander_] #94022
01/05/07 09:33 PM
01/05/07 09:33 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 115
H
HobieZealot Offline
member
HobieZealot  Offline
member
H

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 115
New Aqua Cat 12.5 Catamaran (assembled) available for immediate pickup in Laguna Hills, CA. Special price $1995 picked up in Laguna Hills. Call for details 1-800-844-2399.


[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

nice grab Mark
You can't do a home build for that price.

Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: HobieZealot] #94023
01/05/07 09:42 PM
01/05/07 09:42 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
I did not have the heart to post those pictures!!!

I need another beer!


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: Mark Schneider] #94024
01/05/07 09:45 PM
01/05/07 09:45 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacific....
hobie1616 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
hobie1616  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacific....
Quote
I need another beer!

Me too.
[Linked Image]


US Sail Level 2 Instructor
US Sail Level 3 Coach
Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: Mark Schneider] #94025
01/05/07 09:47 PM
01/05/07 09:47 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 115
H
HobieZealot Offline
member
HobieZealot  Offline
member
H

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 115
Dude that things looks sweeeeet and will only cost you as much as a half decent laptop.

Drag plots comparing boats [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #94026
01/05/07 10:21 PM
01/05/07 10:21 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
I hang this below your posting Rolf, because I know you enjoying reading this stuff.

Thank to the effort by Gareth and his Michlet hull drag software we have gotten these drag plots.


[Linked Image]


We must take the laser 1 drag data with a grain of salt though as the michlet software can't do planing calcs. So at higher speeds the laser drag line should be noticeably lower.

Still, even it the laser plot is noticeably lower after say 3.5 m/s (7 knots) then it will likely still be above the drag line for the F12.

Even if the two lines would overlap thanks to the laser planing then the larger width of the F12 will allow it to develop more sail drive by virtue of more righting moment then the laser. In short it will cream the laser upwind in condition where the laser will start to plane. Downwind the laser will be fast as here is low aspect rif won't hold it back much and the planing will really help, but the F12 will stay close just the same. Around the course this means the F12 will be across the line much earlier.

Wouter

Attached Files
Last edited by Wouter; 01/05/07 10:27 PM.
Re: Drag plots comparing boats [Re: Wouter] #94027
01/05/07 11:25 PM
01/05/07 11:25 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 115
H
HobieZealot Offline
member
HobieZealot  Offline
member
H

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 115
How about speed as a function of wind velocity. That would be apples to apples.

Here a first F12 parts listing [Re: Wouter] #94028
01/06/07 01:21 AM
01/06/07 01:21 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe



Here a first part listing.

I made this to get a feel for were I was in the way of weight, but it may also give you some idea of the costs shall be.

It must be noted that I have 0.5 kg reserved for shackles, rings and other chandlery stuff. However at this moment my design has not used a single one of these yet and it is pretty far developed. Amazing what you can do with lashings, beads and figure 8 knots.

The only part not further specified are the hulls themselfs. I really don't know how much money is involved there.


[Linked Image]


25 kg for everything other then the bare hulls. We are on a right track here. I think I can reduce the weight of the mast a little further as well. But I'll have to check that.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Drag plots comparing boats [Re: HobieZealot] #94029
01/06/07 01:23 AM
01/06/07 01:23 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


And while I'm at it shall I also make a minute long 3d simulation of the boats sailing in various wave conditions ?

Afterall, things like this take all but a few seconds to make, right ?


Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: Mark Schneider] #94030
01/06/07 07:22 AM
01/06/07 07:22 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
The Aqua Cat was Randy Smyth's first catamaran after learning to sail on a Sabot. I think he was 12 years old when he and his younger brother sailed the Aqua Cat in a race to Catalina Island and back.

The small one is really a perfect cat for young kids, the boat is durable, and the rig is very simple. The Aqua Cat is not advertised or marketed to catamaran sailors. The company targets non-sailors -- which is what you guys seem to be wanting to do, too.

Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: Mary] #94031
01/07/07 11:49 AM
01/07/07 11:49 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,449
P
phill Offline
veteran
phill  Offline
veteran
P

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,449
Folks,
For several years I ran the sailing school at our sailing club.
When I first got involved with the school we were teaching youngsters
to sail in little dinghies.(Hobie Hawks)
We would always get a good role up at the beginning of the season but
they would drop off after a few weeks.

When my own kids started I had to practically drag them down to
the sailing club. Eventually we had a 12 ft Surfcat donated to the club
and before we knew it the kids were all trying to get to sail the Surfcat.

Then another one came up quite cheap so we bought it and I noticed my own
kids were having a great time and they were quite eager to go sailing
provided they got to sail the surfcat.

The kids on the surfcats were having so much fun we eventually replaced
the whole fleet of dinghies with Surfcats.

Every time my two son's and I went sailing I was rigging and unrigging 3 boats,
mine plus theirs as they were too small.


The Surfcat were very old and as far as I know no longer made.
So this got me thinking about a small cat for youngsters that was super easy to rig.

From my own experience this type of boat would be relatively attractive
to both parents and youngsters and may help grow the sport.

I think a simple design with very well thought out building instructions
could be built in numbers as a group project by sailing clubs that are interested.

When you look at the cost of building these boats the most expensive
part is going to be the sail. If purchased the rudders could also be
a cost but in reality rudders for a boat as small as this can be made
very easily from ply. Normally I'd keep away from ply as a rudder because
it doesn't like the rolling stresses but with a boat this small it would
be Ok provided it was covered in glass.
Many of the rudders on our surfcats were made of ply and not glassed and worked
great no problems.

The rudder boxes can be made of ply with a tiller arm of timber (maple).
They are unbelievable simple to make. The cheeks of the box are ply
held together with off the shelf pintel fittings and the tiller runs
between the top of the rudder cheeks. If you use shallow spade rudders
the pintel fittings bolt straight onto the rudders.

My first 16ft cat (a Mosquito) had rudder boxes made this way and they worked great.

As far as the sail goes, I made new sails for 6 surfacts from 4 oz dacron or different colours
and the cost of materials for the sails plus full length battens came to a total of something like
$1200 AUS for the 6 main sails.
Each around 80 sq ft.

Once again all you would need is access to sail cloth at the right price plus battens
and very good instructions.
Afterall the building group is not designing the sails just cutting and sewing.
Anyone who can drive a basic sewing machine could do it with good instructions.

BTW:-
We never had any problems with the kids running into each other in the surfcats.
If this was expected to be a problem a layer of glass would go a long way towards
keeping them in one peice and make then very durable.
Anyhow, holes in ply, if the unthinkable did happen are just so easy to fix.

Earlier in the thread Wouter said "The idea for this 12 footer came from Phill
and he wanted a very simple boat that would be very suited to children and small
adults but not look like a bycicle with training wheels."

Just thought I'd explain how I got to that point.


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: phill] #94032
01/07/07 01:03 PM
01/07/07 01:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2
M
MadCatter2000 Offline
stranger
MadCatter2000  Offline
stranger
M

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2
This thread should bring to light the challenges with Youth sailing.

We need another class of boat like we need a hole in our hulls. There are more Catamarans suited to youth than you can shake a stick at. Wave's are just about the best beginner boat that exists. Opti's are the biggest joke of a beginning boat that I could imagine. Gee, could we make it any more difficult <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The problem is that adults just cannot live with the notion of recreational sailing. Every activity has to be pointing Jr. at the Olympics or a professional career that the parents can revel in. It's a lot of pressure and too much for many that are much more realistic about the potential than their parents.

Wanna know why kids drop out of sailing teams? Because circling bouys endlessly on the weekend is not what most kids call fun.

Conversely, going out with their friends, sailing around aimlessly and having fun IS what kids like to do. But ... oh my goodness ... there is simply no chance to become a national champion like that. They must be on the water at every opportunity trying to catchup to those ahead of them. They will read books, suffer videos to get them on top where Mom and Dad want them.

Unfortunately, I have seen one too many kids pushed by their parent's dreams and desires into sports that they do not want to be in or a level that they do not want to participate in (long time coach). There is no doubting the adage of "just add parents to remove the fun".

If you wish to help promote Youth sailing then go to your local clubs, teams and dealers and encourage them to support recreational sailing. Put on FREE (oh, my goodness yes ... FREE) learn to sail camps. Waves and H16's can cover the challenge bases and are the least expensive to buy and maintain.

Living in Florida, I have NEVER seen any promotion for Hobie's ever. A rolling road show as mentioned earlier in the thread would be magnificent. Nothing like seeing these things parked on a beach and getting a free ride.

My kids tried the Opti fleet thing, hated it (boring) and just wanted to sail for fun. I took them and a friend out on the Gulf, visited some islands on the Intracoastal to let them shell and they said it was the most fun they had ever had and they cannot wait to do it again.

We need to ensure that our kids realize that they can take the learn to sail camp and just keep right on sailing for fun. Unfortunately, the bar gets set way too high and the focus gets set on traveling Regatta teams with Saturday & Sunday practices. I am not saying there is anything wrong with this, it is just that this satisfies the needs of very few children and hence the lack of interest.

Recreation drives every sport and that is a fact <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: MadCatter2000] #94033
01/07/07 01:36 PM
01/07/07 01:36 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 902
Norman,OK
gree2056 Offline
old hand
gree2056  Offline
old hand

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 902
Norman,OK
I completely agree with what was said above.

Everyone is trying to built the next olympic boat but what we really need is something very simple. Almost a toy that kids could sail. It does not need to be fast, if it is slow it could be sailed on small ponds found all around towns.

The 12 foot boat will be great for middle school and early HS kids but if you want to get the really young ones into it....Build something 8 feet long and made of plastic. There would be very little stress on everything so it could be built very cheaply. Also it would not have to perform amazingly, just enough so that a kid could experience the feeling that sailing provides. Granted it would look and feel like a toy but that is something that every kid could get into!!


Once you go cat you never go back! Nacra 5.2 (Elsies)#1499, running an inter17 spin!
Re: Youth Recreation Trend [Re: MadCatter2000] #94034
01/07/07 02:19 PM
01/07/07 02:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,449
P
phill Offline
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phill  Offline
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P

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,449
I agree that running kids around a race course is not such a good idea. You need to have a lot of variety and fun in any kids program.

Actually the best fun the kids had was when we played ball games in the boats.
Bouys were just used to mark the area they had to stay within to keep the game full of action.
They had a lot of fun and learnt boat control without even knowing it.
My youngest started playing games like this on 12 ft surfacts when he was 6.
The kids would play in the mornings before the bresse got too strong. When they got the itch to race they would have to ask if they could join in racing in the arvo. Their request was considered but not always granted.

Their time in the morning was aimed at playing and learning
as it should be.


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

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