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H16 comptip #96137
01/14/07 06:39 PM
01/14/07 06:39 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5
F
f1jqcart Offline OP
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f1jqcart  Offline OP
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Hey there. So I am interested in starting to sail in my local Hobie races, but have heard and read about the requirement of a comptip for the boat. I currently have the metal tip. I know a guy who used to race H16s when they introduced the comptip, and he said that the boats would almost always turtle when you capsized them. Was this a problem that just he was experiencing, if it was a large problem then I am assuming that Hobie has already addressed the situation since it was almost 20 years ago, but if someone could confirm that I would appreciate it. Basically I am not interested having to un-turtle my boat everytime it capsizes. Thanks for any info that you can provide.

When is el nino going to make it stop snowing in Colorado so that I can go sailing in January, hahaha.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: H16 comptip [Re: f1jqcart] #96138
01/15/07 03:26 PM
01/15/07 03:26 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
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A CompTip on a Hobie 16 should have no effect on the boat going turtle or not compared to the original masts. The Hobie 16 tip has exactly the same displacement and very little weight difference. Perhaps leaky masts? Properly installed... no problem.


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: H16 comptip [Re: f1jqcart] #96139
01/16/07 09:02 AM
01/16/07 09:02 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 206
Virginia USA
CMerrell Offline
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CMerrell  Offline
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Virginia USA
Ha, ha. I've heard all sorts of horror stories about the Comptip over the years but causing the boat to turtle is a new one on me. => BS.

Are you sure your local race organizers will insist on a Comptip? The Class Association adopted the new/refit Comptip rule (late '80s) because the Class, at that time, was run by the factory and the factory had legal and good faith needs to demonstrate that they would stamp out the horribly defective product. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> (There's still no remedy for defective brains that sail a boat into power lines). In my experience, the Comptip rule has been relaxed over the years at the local level because it is an expense/hassle for entry level racers with 20+ YO boats that provides no benefit. Use the money you would spend on a Comptip on new blocks or line or tiller arm connectors, etc.; something that will actually improve the performance of your boat.

Re: H16 comptip [Re: CMerrell] #96140
01/16/07 09:27 AM
01/16/07 09:27 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline
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Quote
Ha, ha. I've heard all sorts of horror stories about the Comptip over the years but causing the boat to turtle is a new one on me. => BS.

Are you sure your local race organizers will insist on a Comptip? The Class Association adopted the new/refit Comptip rule (late '80s) because the Class, at that time, was run by the factory and the factory had legal and good faith needs to demonstrate that they would stamp out the horribly defective product. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> (There's still no remedy for defective brains that sail a boat into power lines). In my experience, the Comptip rule has been relaxed over the years at the local level because it is an expense/hassle for entry level racers with 20+ YO boats that provides no benefit. Use the money you would spend on a Comptip on new blocks or line or tiller arm connectors, etc.; something that will actually improve the performance of your boat.


I believe relaxing of this racing rule would be in the best interest of the class. How competitive is a 20 plus year old boat going to be anyway? I think it deters newcomers from entering in to class racing. I agree, why spend potentialy half the cost of a used boat on a comp-tip replacement and installation?

I know the rules allow a one time (one regatta) exemption, how about requiring a comp-tip for A fleet with no exceptions?

ps I'm glad the photo in the 2007 Hobie catalogue has changed to a US H16, with comp-tip!!! It's hard to explain to someone with a 1982 boat why they MUST have a comp-tip if they can whip out a catalogue (that they just recieved at the regatta registration table) and show you a new boat without one ps

Last edited by flatlander18; 01/16/07 09:32 AM.

John H16, H14
Re: H16 comptip [Re: CMerrell] #96141
01/16/07 11:02 AM
01/16/07 11:02 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Quote
Are you sure your local race organizers will insist on a Comptip? The Class Association adopted the new/refit Comptip rule (late '80s) because the Class, at that time, was run by the factory and the factory had legal and good faith needs to demonstrate that they would stamp out the horribly defective product. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> (There's still no remedy for defective brains that sail a boat into power lines). In my experience, the Comptip rule has been relaxed over the years at the local level because it is an expense/hassle for entry level racers with 20+ YO boats that provides no benefit. Use the money you would spend on a Comptip on new blocks or line or tiller arm connectors, etc.; something that will actually improve the performance of your boat.


So are you saying that the class is no longer obligated to require racers to use a comptip, since the class association separated from the manufacturer? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> That was not my understanding.

Re: H16 comptip [Re: Mary] #96142
01/16/07 12:03 PM
01/16/07 12:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
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California
Retrofit kit cost for a Hobie 16 CompTip is $318.50 plus freight and any taxes.

Picture of a non-CompTip mast in the parts catalog? I had one shot from the New Caledonia Worlds in there. That the one you refer to? The CompTip rule is only a North American issue. All other boats in the World are not required to have them. I would be very surprised that a newbie would even have picked up on that. You can only see that the one mast has a round head. No telling what the mast is made of from the shot.


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: H16 comptip [Re: mmiller] #96143
01/16/07 12:15 PM
01/16/07 12:15 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline
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_flatlander_  Offline
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Matt,

I'm talking about the Hobie Sailing Products catalog. Look at last years and this years. Same boat, actually looks like the same exact photo, last years has the solid AL mast with the pronounced round sheave on top. The new one has a flat top.


John H16, H14
Re: H16 comptip [Re: _flatlander_] #96144
01/16/07 12:20 PM
01/16/07 12:20 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
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mmiller  Offline
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California
Ah.


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: H16 comptip [Re: mmiller] #96145
01/16/07 09:09 PM
01/16/07 09:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
Let's get this straight -

The Comptip was introduced in late 1984 and announced in the Jan/Feb 1985 HOTLINE.

NAHCA came into its own in November of 1988 when Coleman sold Hobie Cat and an NAHCA chairman was elected (Wick Smith) at the first NAHCA AGM in Corpus Christi (16 Nationals).

The rule change requiring Comptips for class racing was proposed by Jeff Alter and approved at the 1989 NAHCA AGM in Chicago.

I was the Division 10 rep at both meetings. The Hobie Cat Company had nothing to do with the rule change, other than supporting it.

Now for more practical matters - the class rule will not be changed or relaxed in the forseeable future. However, it's not the class that will DSQ you from an event, for the class cannot file a protest at a regatta. Only the R/C or your fellow competitors can do that.

For a novice who's just getting started, it would be nasty introduction to the sport be protested for not having a Comptip, but they run that risk, nevertheless. I would consider the chances unlikely, especially in local fleet racing.

However, once they start beating people on the race course, they had better start think about complying with the class rules - the better they do on the race course, the higher the risk of protest.

In A fleet, it goes without saying. That's a competitive crowd. You might get your one exemption, but that's it. Even some B fleets are like that (upstate New York, for example).

Re: H16 comptip [Re: Mary] #96146
01/17/07 08:22 AM
01/17/07 08:22 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 206
Virginia USA
CMerrell Offline
enthusiast
CMerrell  Offline
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Virginia USA
Mary,
I may have my facts wrong WRT the history. (I'll continue this below with Matt B).

I'm saying that local RCs do not always enforce the letter of the class association law. With respect to the Comptip, I think it is reasonable to turn a blind eye to the requirement in the case of newbies, B Fleeters and older boats.

Re: H16 comptip [Re: mbounds] #96147
01/17/07 08:53 AM
01/17/07 08:53 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
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_flatlander_ Offline
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_flatlander_  Offline
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mbounds,

Thanks for straightening things out.

So we'll address our hate mail to Jeff Alter? I'm kidding!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In the present world of reduced numbers of racers, I'd have to define our "local" fleet racing as the closest Hobie sanctioned events. I suppose it may be prudent to inform RC's ahead of time you're planning on showing up with noncomp newbies in tow.

I am vehemently opposed to the agruement that if you've got the money to travel to a regatta, you must have the money for a comp-tip. A lot of sailors start or continue going to regattas solely for the social aspect. I'm particularly interested in seeing more college students or young couples/families attending on limited budgets.

I'd hope everyone to have a realistic attitude.


John H16, H14
Re: H16 comptip [Re: mbounds] #96148
01/17/07 09:18 AM
01/17/07 09:18 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 206
Virginia USA
CMerrell Offline
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CMerrell  Offline
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Virginia USA
I'll defer to your expertise WRT NAHCA history. However, it does beg the question of why the newly independent Class Association would go out of its way to implement the (at the time, controversial) Comptip requirement without some sort of factory prompting or legal CYA?

The Comptip rule has no effect on rank-and-file racers. We have them. However, entry-level racers are often faced with a choice of throwing away $300+ on a Comptip or breaking the rules before they even start their first race. How can they not say: what kind of effed up sport/organization is this? Maybe the problem becomes more moot at time passes.

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Re: H16 comptip [Re: CMerrell] #96149
01/17/07 09:43 AM
01/17/07 09:43 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline
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Maybe the problem becomes more moot at time passes.

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


I'd wish this was true, but it always seems there's one rules tote-in "guru" in the bunch. Case in point from last September. We took a newbie boat owner to race at a yacht club regatta with a multi-hull start (handicap scoring, predominately TheMightyHobie18's). This guru engaged the H16 sailor in conversation after the event and informed him if he's planning on more racing in the future he'll "Need to get a comp-tip on that thing!" This poor guy finished dead last, and up to that point had expressed having a good time nonetheless. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />


John H16, H14
Re: H16 comptip [Re: _flatlander_] #96150
01/17/07 10:58 AM
01/17/07 10:58 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 29
syracuae
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cheech Offline
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I'm with Matt on this one, the first two years I raced on a shoe string, If I broke something at a regatta I was done for the weekend. My boat cost less than a new comptip!


Cheech U-204
Re: H16 comptip [Re: cheech] #96151
01/20/07 12:30 PM
01/20/07 12:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 160
North Carolina
A
abbman Offline
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Posts: 160
North Carolina
One of my main questions about the comptip issue is the expense. Does it actually cost 300+ dollars to make a comptip portion of the mast? This is not meant to be a question of criticism, but one of curiosity. Similarly to cheech, the comptip is about half of what I bought my boat for. At the time of purchase I was unaware of the comptip rule, which I take full responsibility of course. I am just curious if Hobie USA is selling them at cost, or if they have been marked up. I feel very strongly about supporting Hobie by purchasing Hobie name brand equipment from local Hobie dealers, but it seems that an effort would be made to make the comptip more affordable to further the sport of Hobie racing. Any clarification would be appreciated.
James


James
1983 Hobie 16'
Re: H16 comptip [Re: abbman] #96152
01/22/07 05:18 PM
01/22/07 05:18 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
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California
At any price they will seem expensive to a guy with a $500 boat. You don't get something bigger or faster for the price. You just replace a piece with a more expensive part, but what you do get is a safety item that could save a life. That is the major push of the whole program.

CompTips are sold as replacement parts, so the cost to a retail buyer is $490.00 To enable the less expensive retrofit cost we pass them through at dealer price. They used to be free when Coleman paid for them, but that stopped years ago. I suppose you could contact Coleman and see if you can push them to cover it.


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: H16 comptip [Re: mmiller] #96153
01/22/07 09:20 PM
01/22/07 09:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 160
North Carolina
A
abbman Offline
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North Carolina
Thank you very much for the quick response. I can completely understand the saftey concern that is associated with the older model mast tips. The 300 dollars does seem like a lot to a guy like myself, sailing on a very limited budget, as well as considering the overall cost of my boat. However, I am very relieved to know that there are considerations in pricing being made for individuals that own an older model boat, which was one of my initial concerns. I would like to begin attending regattas and the discovery that I had bought a boat that would basically be illegal to race was a little saddening. But I'm glad to know that Hobie USA is still supporting this. Plus, I know you guys are offering quality stuff. If I ever get any good at sailing this thing I may look into making her legit. I certainly wouldn't expect any company to cover a retrofit of this expence for all of the boats based on what wasn't a company change initially. I can understand how this could have been an inconvieniece on a number of levels but I agree with the "better safe than sorry" principle. It would be interesting to know what Coleman had to say though. Thanks again.
James


James
1983 Hobie 16'
Re: H16 comptip [Re: abbman] #96154
01/23/07 12:39 AM
01/23/07 12:39 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 44
Minnesota
hititmaestro Offline
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Minnesota
How about we have a "non comp-tip only" race for all of us who dont want to pay for the upgrade based on the cost being more than our boats cost? i'll host it you guys bring the beer!


When i was your age Pluto was a planet Blake Johnson 1973 hobie 16 sail 2663
Re: H16 comptip [Re: hititmaestro] #96155
01/23/07 10:34 AM
01/23/07 10:34 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 160
North Carolina
A
abbman Offline
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abbman  Offline
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North Carolina
I'm game man. I got a cooler ready and waiting. Just make sure you save me some of that beer for when I come dragging in. Light or dark my friend? (The beer that is)

Maybe we could sponsor retrofits for the winners or winner.
James


James
1983 Hobie 16'
Re: H16 comptip [Re: abbman] #96156
01/23/07 12:02 PM
01/23/07 12:02 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 221
North Carolina
hrtsailor Offline
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North Carolina
I bought my boat new in 1985 and was offered a free retrofit of the comptip within a few months. I decided against it and have not regretted that decision. I don't race so that is not an issue. I once helped step a comptip mast on a 18 and thought it to be considerably heavier than my mast. One interesting point was that Hobie stated in the letter about the retrofit that the comptip reduced the size of the "cone of protection" from lightning. It protects against hitting power lines as you might find in a launch area. I read where the only thing more dangerous than being out on the water in a thunderstorm in a boat with a mast is to be out in a boat without a mast. I wonder if anyone has had experience with lightning with either mast?

Howard

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