Me again, I still do not understand throw outs, the F18 worlds, Boat 1 with 27 points and boat 2 with 28 points going into the last race. I think the sport would be so much better if there were no throw outs. Granted, it is very clever to sail your oponnent off the course but I think the sport of sailing would be better off if the last race came down to who sailed the last race better rather then who can sit on a competitor and then not even finish the race. No ill will to the sailors, rules are rules, if your within the rules then go for it and win the regatta the way they did. I just hate throw outs. The only other sport I can think of that has throw outs would be and correct me if I am wrong, Gymnastics? Anyone else feel this way? I have experienced a few times where a good friend took away a podium spot from me because of the throw outs, overall I have a better score but take the throw into the equation and he gets the spot. This post is just to get some opinions, not really a big deal at all but I was curious, anyone else on my side of the debate in wishing for a Marstrom M20 to show up at the door tomorrow from UPS and also getting rid of the throw out rule?

I'm with you on the M20 showing up on my doorstep, but I'm on the fence regarding throwouts. I believe throwouts are neccessary to compensate for catastrophic equipment failures, and other items beyond the cotrol of competitors. I also note that for example in this particular case Mitch and Pim seem to be ok with the way things worked out. I also would have to argue that Mitch HAD to have a pretty good idea that this would be Bundy's strategy (if you look at the numbers I "believe" this was the ONLY way Bundy could pull off the win). That being the case, I'm sure Mitch "tried" to prevent getting below Bundy on the start, but lost the battle....and the regatta was so close that it came down to that failure.

I will say that at least at first I struggled as you are (even started to start a similar post but decided against it).

I look forward to the day that I am competitive enough that stuff like this "will" impact me!!

Like Bundy and Mitch themselves understood and both said, the last race was almost certain to come down to a "match race" between the two of them, and that’s exactly how it turned out. They were both prepared for it and the better sailer on the day won. If Mitch had (and he would sure as hell been trying) gotten the upper hand at the start then the results could have very easily gone the other way.
It's exactly the same for all the finals races of the Americas cup, except there are only the two boats out there on the water. As far as both Mitch and Bundy were concerned there was only the two of them out there on that last race as well. You could think of it also like a game of soccer where the two teams are tied nil all at the final siren, they then decide the results on penalty shots for goal. Some say that is unfair but most see the logic as “good for the game”

well said Darryl..........

Agree 100%, It is all part of the game. I'd bet a fair number of championships are decided this way.

Why do people not love the challenge any more? I do not mean to be rude and I am sure he is just lost in the present culture but it is as irrelivant a way to win as standing on a competitors golf ball.

Craig Hackett, is that you? Are you still in Newmarkett? Drop me a private message, got some catching up to do!

There are a ton of variables and a lot of things that can affect you beyond your control on a race course. Most often, when you are fouled by a competitor, even if the competitor does his turns, you still are affected. I could go on and on, but my point is that the throwout helps overcome these kind of influences and level the field a little.

Hi Darryl -

I agree to a point - Mitch was beating Darren boat for boat as the conditions moderated, and he and Pim really had momentum on their side. It appears from the reports and mark-roundings that Mitch was just sailing better. In the end, it was the use of the throwout that determined the outcome - instead of going faster than Mitch, Darren's goal was to give him a throwout bigger than his five. Throwouts were conceived to address unforseen breakdowns and the like. It appears Darren considered the tactic a method of last resort... or he would have done it first race of the day, instead of simply trying to be faster than Mitch.

Yes - within the rules. Yes - good tactics. Yes - Mitch was faster on the day.

Still - a seriously exciting end to what appears to have been a wildly successful event. Medwell, Laruffa, et. al. - well done!

John, weren't there some changes to the new Olympic sailing rules, where only the top 10 boats will sail in the finals and there will be no throwouts? I realize this is not the Olympics, but for future reference, I'd like to know. Thanks.

Yeah, in an effort to increase the marketability, the majority of the event is considered like a 'regular season' that leads up to the playoffs. The last day of racing (or two?) is for the top contenders and they get no throwouts. So far, the system doesn't seem to be very popular among the competitors.

From Sailing.org:

"1. Regatta Format

An 11 race series (a 16 race series for the 49er). A Medal Race will be scheduled on the day designated for each class’s medal ceremony, even if the full schedule has not been completed by that day.
The top 10 placed boats advance to the Medal Race. All boats advancing will be required to compete in the Medal Race.
On the water umpiring will be used in the Medal Race.
This format will apply to all test events and the 2008 Olympic Regatta (for all classes).
2. Scoring System

There will be one discard for the series score but the Medal Race shall not be discarded.
Competitors will carry their series scores (ie total of race scores after discard) through to the Medal Race.
Race scores for the Medal Race will be doubled (ie 2 points for first, 4 points for second, and so on) and added to the series score.
Any series tie after the Medal Race will be broken in favour of the boat finishing higher in the Medal Race.
If the Medal Race is not completed, medals will be awarded based on the series score for all the prior races (in the normal way)."

To me, that sounds even more complicated than the existing system!

ISAF really need to ask themselves whether sailing is for the sailors or the spectators.

I don't think changing the scoring system is going to draw more spectators, particularly if it is becoming more complex! The only way to make watching sailing more enjoyable is to change the racing format. Shorter races (5-15 mins, four or so back to back), more requirements for close quarters manoeuvring to keep dull periods of racing to a minimum.

I understand the argument of boat breakages but there are other ways to get around it, or you can just deal with it (look at what happens when a rowing shell breaks down during a race...nothing, you just lose). If the crews are supplied boats, having spares is not a problem.

If a tonne of short back-to-back races are conducted, don't have any drops(throw-outs), if they think that drops are confusing.

An alternative proposition for an Olympic regatta with say 30 boats...
- Divide into 6 fleets of 5 boats.
- Have rolling starts for 5-15 min races. (About 4-5 races per fleet per day, have a number of courses to suit)
- 1-2 umpires per start. (generally speaking, 1 umpire would be able to deal with a fleet of 5 boats after they clear the start line)
- Race like that for a day with boats collecting points (drops or not can be determined after a couple of events like this are held)
- After a days racing, the top three boats from each fleet go to the next days racing.
- Divide into 3 fleets of 6 boats.
- Rolling starts again.
- Top 2 boats from each fleet to go through to next days races again.
- Race off for the places (points starting from 0 each day)
- On-water interviews between races.
- Smaller courses means they can be closer to shore.
- Windward leewards for skiff/apparent wind boats, triangles for slower boats.
- Have plenty of on-water spectating options...how about a floating spectator stand on a barge!


This is similar to current Olympic events like athletics and rowing, except that athletes in these events only get one chance to go through to the next round, gear failure or not.

Instead of having spectators care about the points, just give them a relegation style event.

From a spectators point of view, this might be more interesting. From a sailors point of view the current system with everyone racing together for 10 or so races is better (in my opinion).

...end of rant...

Probably should note that this would be best for dinghies, rather than cats or keel boats. Will have to think about them a bit more.

I know it will work with dinghies because it is a similar arrangement to how we ran teams racing around here. Logistically it is feasible and it is quite exciting to watch and participate in.

But on the other hand, in the absence of breakdowns
and fouls, a throwout allows a boat that has not
sailed as well in a series as another boat
to win.

That depends on what your definition of "sailing better" is...

In the current system, after all drops are accounted for, the person with the lesser points IS better...it's been acknowledged as such in thousands of regattas all over the world since the implementation of the current system many many years ago...

This is the problem (perhaps perceived problem) with the new system trying to be implemented for the Olympics, the better sailor doesn't necessarily win if they have a gear failure, bad race, damaged in a collision or similar in the "finals", because it has to be counted...plus you get lumbered with extra points...or have I got it all wrong?

I'm not saying it won't find the best sailor, but I'm sure events will be won by the under-dog many times. Does anyone remember the short-course speed-skating at the winter Olympics when the Aussie guy (who was running last) won the finals because the other three fell over on the last corner...I predict that sort of thing will be prevalent with the new race scoring system.

Does anybody know the history of how and when and why "they" (ISAF?) came up with the idea of allowing throwouts?

Seems to me the person that sails the most consistantly should win. If Joe's worst finish is a 5th, and John's is a 25th (which he throws out), why shouldn't Joe win?
John had a bad race and still was rewarded with a victory (no breakdowns, no one interfered.., just a bad race and it happens to everyone once in a while).
I know I took second in two major nationals on that exact basis -- my worst finishes were around 5, while the winner was throwing out numbers in the upper teens.
Sort of a socialistic or communistic rule. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Rick

I think that "Discards" (as we call them <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) were around long before ISAF, (as we know them).

Well, all I know is that I had never heard of throwouts in the 1940's, and 1950's and early 1960's. Rick thinks maybe throwouts started being used in the late 1960's.

Did they start being used at the grass roots level, to keep people from being demoralized when they had a bad race or a breakdown? And did the concept work its way up to the top level (Olympics)?

OR did it start at the top and work its way down?

WHEN AND WHY AND HOW did the idea start? There must be a historian somewhere who keeps track of these things. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />