Fellow Sailors,

The US Sailing Multihull Championship Committee is diligently working to stage the 2012 Hobie Alter Championship.

To date, we have held two nation-wide teleconferences (207 minutes total) with the members of the championship committee as well as the sub - committees. Laura Sullivan, secretary extraordinaire, has published the minutes of our meeting in record time.

The minutes of the USSA Championship Committee are published All Championship Committe Minutes

Minutes of our first meeting are published here! Minutes of first meeting (Pdf)

We are committed to keeping all multihull sailors informed of our progress so that you may remain current with the news as the work continues.

Due to the extreme cost of charter fees and limited Hoyt - Jolley funds, I must confess that the regatta format we loved, in honor of Hobie Alter and trophy craftsman, Gordon Isco, may have become impracticable, financially, but the names, engraved on the trophy, still carry our history, and thus inspire our efforts to sustain the perpetuity of the "Alter Cup."

Our committee is asking for you to bear with us during this trying time.

Sail with Aloha,
Bert Rice, US Sailing Multihull Championship Committee Chair

Thanks. Good luck, please keep us informed.

Yep... this is what informed will look like!
Last nights minutes are already in draft format...(god Laura is good)

If your official OD class email system does not get pinged... PLEASE push this out for us.

The survey team is working on survey... more as soon as possible. There is nothing easy in this process... trust me.

Good job all. This will not be the Ides of March.

FYI,

Minutes of Championship committee Thursday meetings are published here.

http://championships.ussailing.org/Committee/Meetings_and_Agendas/Spring_12.htm

Last weeks minutes were approved and will be posted shortly. Last nights Thursday minutes will be posted after approval next Thursday night....

The good news is that the MCC will not postpone the 2011 qualifier/2012 championship announcement.

Thanks.

Breaking news !

Mixed Tornado crew of Roland Gaebler and Nahid loose out to a kiddies boat sailed by two adult males !


From the AHPC facebook page (the others are surprisingly quiet these last days) :



DAY 8: The day started well... But straight after briefing the wind dropped out. Everyone is currently enjoying the warmth (~18 degrees).

The sea breeze is expected to fill in early this afternoon. Enrique Figueroa (PUR), one of the Evaluation Panel member, will be sailing one of the VIPERs with Brett. Good luck guys... enjoy the ride!!


DAY 8: Racing got underway by 1:30pm. Have not got a full report yet, but according to Brett's twitter he says.... "Great day on the water at the Olympic trials, we saw a sunny 8knts and the VIPER again stamped its authority on the course... 4 wins from 6"

Just had a skype from Greg...

Brett did sail with Enrique Figueroa (PUR), one of the evaluation panel... They had a blast. It took Enrique 2 races to get the feel of the boat, and then got all bullets in the last 4 races. This was not enough for the pair so they double trapped on spinnaker back home after the finish for that added adrenaline shot.

The Tornado had the Gaebler's on board, and won one of the 6 races.

I think that everyone has realised how mighty the 16 ft VIPER is!!!!

There maybe no racing tomorrow as many of the sailors will be heading off home.

end quote AHPC faceboo page


I admit that I'm enjoying this unashamedly as there has been alot of negative comments on the F16's from Tornado related sailors over the last weeks. In some cases they were totally disrespectful or clearly untruthful. It was way beyond normal PR. Lots of this did however happen on sailing anarchy etc and not on catsailor.

finally a picture that lets us directly compare the Nacra F16 with the Nacra 17 !

Measurements on the foto, with the F16 being 5.00 mtr long, shows the Nacra 17 to be 5.28 mtr or 17 foot and 4 inches. Lets round this off to 5.30 mtr to be on the save side. As such it is exactly a foot longer then the F16. The F18 class rule limit F18 hulls to 5.52 mtr overall. or about 8 inches longer.

The distance from the keel line to the mainbeam / rearbeam appears to be identical, about 47 cm or 0.47 mtr in front and 41 cm or 0.41 mtr in the back. That is a good amount of beam clearance and I suspect the boats will handle chop well in this respect. Also the the length of the hull behind the rearbeam is identical with boat boats. Could it be that crosssection shapes of the hulls are identical too ?

The overall length difference appears to be evenly divided over extra distance between the beams and a longer bow section. The F16 has 1.97 mtr between the beams and the Nacra 17 has 2.12. That means halve the overal distance, or 0.15 mtr, is placed in the bow section. The F16 has its mainbeam at 55% hull length from the stern and so too has the Nacra 17.

This picture pretty much says it all, I think. First off all, you really have to line the two boats up to spot the difference. Thank God for the differences in paint jobs (and sailnumbers) or they would have been impossible to tell apart in the ISAF trail pictures. Additionally, I see lots of foundation for the claim that the Nacra 17 is a Nacra F16 hull after it has been scaled up in length rather then a Nacra 20C hull scaled down.


Click on the provided link to see a larger picture.

Does someone else have good pictures of showing both boats simultaniously from the front. I would like to know if the Nacra's are the same width or whether the Nacra 17 is 2.60 mtr wide.

The same applies to the masts. From what I've seen it appears that both use the same length of masts, possibly the exact same section.

I venture that the Nacra 17 is fitted with a slightly larger mainsail or indeed 15 sq. mtr. + 0.15 * 8.1 mtr = 15 + 1.215 = max 16.2 sq. mtr. As the difference between the beams would suggest that 0.15 mtr is added to the boom length and possibly to the whole leech.

A similar reasoning (bow + 0.15 mtr) puts the jib at max 4.09 sq. mtr. compared to 3.70 sq. mtr. of the F16 when it is assumed that the same mast is used.

Of course, the hull length say nothing about the spinnaker being used, so that can still be of any size between 17.5 sq.mtr (F16) and 21 sq. mtr. (=max allowed under Texel and ISAF rating without additional penalties). 18.5 sq. mtr seems most likely however when taking into account the 6% additional hulls and usage of the same mast.

I don't think that that will help much in the way of performance as luff length is the more dominant factor here. That may only increase when they are using a longer mast on the Nacra 17.

Anyway, does anyone have more dependable data or pics that allow us to compare the two directly.

Wouter

Boat width: 2.59m
Boat length: 5.25m
Carbon mast length: 9.10m
Curved foil length: 1.8m
Main sail area including mast: 16.25m2
Jib area; 4.0m2
Spinnaker area: 18.5m2
Boat weight: 142kg

That what is interesting they raced the viper as a mens team not the required mixed team. I thought I read were the Gabler’s were not allowed to race as they were over 140KG specification and had to adhere to the trails evaluation specifications.

Also while nice for viper they won won races with Enrique Figeroua sailing you forget to mention that the Tiger won the races when he was steering. So maybe it may not just be all boat but the quality of guy holding the tiller.

I think some balanced reporting maybe better for all so we understand what is really happening.

Sorry to hijack an already hijacked thread

are you sure about the 9.10 mtr mast ?

That seems almost impossible with a total sail area of 16.25 sq. mtr.

Let me explain where I see a problem.

nacra F16 rig => 8.5 mtr maxt , 8.1 mtr luff and distance between beams 1.97 mtr.

total mainsail area 15 sq. mtr.


Now take a 0.6 mtr taller mast and therefore 0.6 mtr more luff length. Additionally, the spacing between the beams is increase by some 0.15 mtr. Both these elements place the new mainsail area at 15 + 0.6 * 2.12 + 1.5 * 8.6*0.075 = 17.24 sq.mtr. where is is assumed that both rig have a squaretop of the same percentage.

This is off course logical as a 9.1 mtr tall mast is what the F18's have combined with a very similar spacing between the beams.

anyway,

punched then numbers you quoted into the (ISAF) SCHRS rating system

it produced 0.984

compare this too the F16's at 0.989 and F18's at 0.966

Basically, on specs alone the nacra 17 is estimated as 19 seconds per hour faster then the class spec F16's and 66 seconds slower then the F18's.

Of course this system doesn't take account of lifting foils.

Thanks for the specs.

I WANT MY THREAD BACK...

(not that I haven't hijacked a thread or two!)

But ..trying to figure out what two hundred cat sailors (filled out the survey) and the 300 silent majority (old nixonian political term).... is ... uh... maddening...

Makes you surly when my buddy Wouter starts the hijack`

BTW.... Help me out.... what do you think the term elite sailor means?...

What should a single championship event be about when you have Wave to Tornado sailors in the survey.

for instance... Is the winner of the Wave NA's an elite sailor?
Is the winner of the F18s NA's an elite sailor?

If there were 50 waves and 50 f18's... does it make a difference?

Then you are officially asking for public input?

These are public meetings.... I personally listen to anyone with something to say on the matter... I have been somewhat surprised that nobody comments on the minutes... they do reflect the progress and we work very hard on them.

The Silent Majority that I refered to.... got more then they expected with ol Dick Nixon ... and perhaps.. not what they wanted.... Being silent has some costs.. so... Speak now or hold your peace! Send me an email... private message or start a discussion.

The only way this works is for a consensus to form!

US Sailing MHC collected the survey... It will be published shortly.. Before you look at the summary...consider the overarching questions. I am looking for the insights the sailors have. Think about what's the meaning of elite Sailor and WHAT is the proper balance....before the survey is released.

As Bert announced... Provided boats are no more... Clubs with a fleet of cats don't exist. So, we are in the world of BYOB.
Examples of BYOB championships are:

Woman's keel boat championship BYOB with charters..every two years.. OPEN. J/22 (36 boats)
US Disabled Championship... BYOB... OPEN. (lots of divisions)
What will Multihull championship look like?

I don't comment on the minutes because it's a work in progress. Imo, any serious comment is premature I'm just glad someone is working the problem and trying to build concensus and interest among the rank and file.

Personally, I don't like the term "elite". Imo it has a pejorative ring to it unless it is accompanied by a truly impressive resume that includes high achievement in international competition. I would limit elite to those with Olympic or World Championship medals.

"What will Multihull championship look like?" I'll restate my opinion of what I hope it will be. A large open regatta, run on at least two different courses: one for us partiers one for the serious sailors trying to win the Alter Cup. The "Cup" fleet should rotate among the several different classes, possibly coinciding with that years national championship.

Pete,

There's no need to twist things around. Just because this site isn't "official" doesn't mean we don't listen here.

Mark is on the committee and is asking for your opinion. You are free to give it or not.

Having said that, thanks for your input. I'm just one vote, but I do happen to strongly agree with some of your points, and they do reflect a lot of the opinions that came through in the survey.

Mike

So where do we stand? Anything new?

Minutes are now sorted out and posted.

I'm a little confused. How many regattas are planned? what boats will be able to participate?

I believe one regatta is planned:

USSA Alter Cup: November 15th- 18th at Pensacola Bay Yacht Club

The regatta will be open, and sailed in F16s under F16 class rules (including valid measurement)

The F16 Nationals remain the same:

F16 Nationals: November 10th-11th at St. Andrews Bay Yacht Club

Both events will be great, and I hope I can sail in one of them!

Good deal! I've planned to sail Nationals all along.

PBYC = Pensacola Beach Yacht Club. I hear we're sailing on the Bay rather than the Sound.

Actually, November 9th-11th at St. Andrews Bay Yacht Club.

Is that competition on the 9th or just set up and registration?

F16 Nationals Nov 9 -11, 2012. Re, "I hope I can sail ONE of them" Sailors please chime in -- will anyone out there be able and likely to sail in both events (both are F16 Open events), or will you be required to chose just one? If you have to chose just one, which one will you attend? We need some serious feedback and we need it quick. 2012 F16 Nationals was planned when there were no major conflicts, now the host club has to seriously evaluate whether there will likely be enough of a turn out that the club is not in danger of taking a financial hit. Please help us figure out whether, as the 2012 F16 Nationals host site, we are likely to have a reasonable turnout. Given what we knew about the location of the fleet and the other regularly scheduled events during that time frame, we thought we would get at least 25 boats to the regatta. Now we are very concerned. Both events are Open F16 events in the Florida panhandle, just a few days apart. Alter cup is 4 days and $400 entry fee. F16 Nationals planned for 3 days and $150 entry fee.

I'm in for nationals. Alter Cup probably not.

Tentative plan via Paul Ulibarri, PRO for F16 Nationals was to stage optional practice race on Thurs, Nov. 8, then race days Fri - Sun (Nov 9 -11). Monday Nov 12 is Veterans Day.

I plan to do both.

Nationals

Thanks, John! If we can get enough boats, we will make the F16 Nationals a BIG PARTY for sure!

Apologies for having the dates of F16 nationals wrong, I used what was on the St. Andrews Bay Yacht Club website.

I'm hoping to sail in one of the events, probably not both. The reason for that is I don't own an F16, and would likely need to be asked to sail by someone who does, or charter a boat for the regatta. Also, as a grad student my sailing funds are limited and are primarily being allocated towards the F18 worlds.

I still maintain that both events will be excellent!

Nationals is my first preference. I may consider doing AC as well, or make my boat available to someone else from CRAW.

I'm sorry about the highjack Mark. I had the two threads mixed up and posting my message in the wrong thread.

Readers Digest version:

The general idea on having the events be separate, but close (and using the same equipment) would be that we would not impact the F16 Nationals, but would have boats in the same general vicinity available to charter (privately owned or from the manufacturers who plan to be in the area already for the Nationals), so we can accomodate teams that want to sail the Alter Cup but do not have an F16 of their own. At this time, there is still a very strong opinion within the committee that the Alter Cup needs to remain a unique (separate) event.

None of our decisions have been easy, given the new world we are living in. Manufacturers want way more than even the previous $7,000 to provide 10 boats under the old format. No one has come up with a megabucks sponsor to make that happen, and we needed to make quick decisions, or have no event.

There were plenty of other complications, but this is the gist of this decision.

Hope this helps.

Mike

Mike, I'm not intentionally throwing a monkey in the wrench, but I have to point out that the "new world" is the result of the US Sailing National Championships sponsorship package - it is not of the manufacturer's making. As long as we were able to recognize the boat builders as major sponsors, the charter fees were manageable. When we lost against the push to call them "paid suppliers," and saw them treated as such, we lost their tolerance for lower fees.

It bothers me a lot, considering the 25+ years of support, that manufacturers seem to now be "blamed" for the current format.

Well, it's pretty important. Where does the blame lie?

I don't think there is any, Pete. The sponsorship package evolved, and the "old" event format became incompatible. They were two, different missions.

Um, I would call that a fully intentional rant.

The fees are across the board, not just one supplier. No one is blaming the manufacturers alone. The boats lose 10% of value when they are sold as used. Do the math on a $20,000 boat...

Mike

I plan on doing Nationals for sure. Possibly both.

Greetings,

RE: Formula 16 build up in the Florida panhandle

The lead - in event will be the F 16 National Championship at StABYC November 9 - 11, and the racing for the 2012 'Alter Cup' will be on Pensacola Bay November 15 - 18.

We learned a lesson during Tradewinds, and that lesson was, "Thou shalt not stack titles."

Our yacht clubs and the MHCC wish to assist the US Formula 16 Class Association in building its destiny by supporting both events with equal enthusiasm so that youth sailors may gain valuable ground while they are 'at weight' on the boat. Youth sailors can sail Optis for only so long :)IMHO

We enjoyed eight races during our midwinters this weekend. Taylor Reiss overcame the self inflicted wound of bringing his C2 tiller cross bar for the Viper 16. I told him how proud I was that he came back on day two by his capacity for mental toughness. Taylor and my grandson were the Fleet winners. Photos and results will be available soon.

I have the Sailwave html, and I am waiting on the yc webmaster to pen them. Sail with Aloha!

Which leads to the question, would the championship be better served by severing its ties with US Sailing?

Uh oh... Here we go again...

As much as I like competition, and USS needs some, I think this is a bad approach. It would be like climbing Everest.

But what do you have in mind?

Is the alter cup going to be sailed as previous events have? 20 teams sailing 10 identically prepped boats in two flights? Teams are selected through area championships or through petition?

From the sound of this thread, it sounds like anyone who shows up with their f16 (any brand) can sail the alter cup. Am I missing something?

I am not trying to stir any pots regarding the whole alter cup boat issue, I am just looking for some clarification on how the event is being administered.

I think you are spot are. Show up with a cert., pay your money and you're in, provided you're on a F16.

I'd love to do it. But I don't love it $400 worth.

This iteration will not be like previous events. The primary reason is not being able to offset the growing expense of chartering 10 new boats and/or difficulty in putting together a fleet of 10 existing boats in short order. It will be an open event for F16 teams (or teams that wish to charter and bring an F16). The times, they are'a changin'.

Jeff, help me understand why the US Sailing Championship is $100 a day while the F16 National Championship is $50 a day. Espically when US Sailing brings a ready made sponsorship package to the table and has access to the Hyott Jolly fund.

Really? I thought Tradewinds was a great turnout with lots of competition. Many racers left with awards based upon their sub-classification within the event. The youth got challenged by all sorts of competitors.

The yearly round robin overlay of the multihull championship on top of recognized catamaran classes' Nationals/North Americans would have been an inexpensive solution for US Sailing.

I am sorry to see the recent Alter Cup formula end. Those involved deserve a lot of recognition because it does not get any better than that and to do it with a limited budget also....hats off!!!

"Stacked" titles is the way to go, imo. Run two courses, one for Alter Cup one for ANYONE else who will come and sail to have a good time. Rotate Alter Cup among the classes.

I was only at Tradewinds as a spectator but it seemed like it was well run. I thought there should have been more PR and that would have attracted even more people.

US Sailing owns the Alter Cup via a contract/deed of gift.

So, aren't we reinventing anyway? Do we really need to pay double just because it's a US Sailing Championship? How does paying twice as much move the sport forward?

I like the notion of Alter Cup for selecting the best, mostly highly skilled people we have. But the sport sprang from a day at the beach! Fun!

We need to get back to A,B, and C fleets.

I'm not saying this to be mean, Ding, but you don't have to go.

If you find value in going, then go. Otherwise, don't.

I thought the Championship of Champions was pricey ($400) for 3 days of racing and a practice day. However, they fed us (beer, breakfast, lunch and dinner for 4 days), entertained us (Gary J. and Tom Ehman spoke on different nights) and they arranged for us to stay with a local family so I didn't have to pay for a hotel. We got in 20 races in three days with boat rotations between each race. We got a whole bunch of swag to go along with our registration - including a DVD slide show of the professional photos taken at the event.

I didn't see the value going in, but I sure saw it coming out. I'd do it again in a heartbeat - as long as I don't have to sail a Flying Scot again.

So it's US Sailings position to charge twice as much as pretty much the same event as the month before and if you have a question about paying double US Sailing's response is... Don't go, really?

I've heard Jobson speak, what else you got?

Why is everyone so afraid to challenge the staffers of US Sailing regarding the imposed fees for US Sailing Championships?

OK guys, let's take a few deep breaths.

Mark was simply asking for your input for events after 2012, as that will be the next job for the committee.

US Sailing is neither dictating the budget, nor getting the numbers from the manufacturers. Accusations to the contrary are insulting to the volunteers spending countless hours on this.

As for 2012, the NOR is still in draft, and a press release will accompany that.

Until those documents are released, take everything that you read here with a grain of salt.

When those documents are released, before you choose to lash out here, realize that many people are putting in a lot of time to come up with a great event, and to try to come up with the best solutions to continue the health of the championship on a long-term basis.

Mike

AND WE ARE BACK ON TRACK here...

Feel free to define an elite sailor for me.. I think that is a fundamental issue for everyone to agree on.

We have the Olympics and the ISAF grade I events to figure out who the best catamran sailor in the country is... and we send them off to the Olympics to try for a gold.

We have a Champion of champions regatta already... It is for any sailor, who wins their class NA's to apply for and compete....IMO, these are 20 elite sailors. So... Matt Bounds applied and raced this event as a H17NA champ. Catamarans are not special... they don't get a mini-version of this regatta. Sailing is sailing.

So. What is the mulithull championship supposed to add to the big picture?

Who is the core constituency that you can count on to pay the time and money to compete for the US Multihull Championship and what does it mean?

Nail meet coffin.
I would love to hear the reasoning behind this from someone involved with US Sailing. They have sponsors and money in a fund yet find the need to fleece sailors just to race for the "Alter Cup", which will mean alot less under the new format because everyone will be using their own boats, it's not controlled. Unfortunately this really doesn't surprise me.

Todd, Dave, John, anyone with budget issues.

I urge you to speak with Kevin Rejda? of PBYC who I believe will be the Regatta Chair AND

Eric White, the F16 class chairman and proponent for this regatta option.n Eric is a voting member on the championship committee and participated in the budget discussion.

Those are the people who will be marketing the regatta or answering your questions.

Bert Rice has handed over the control in this process because he is chair of the committee.

Trust me... choices were made and I can tell you that EVERY SINGLE ONE of those choices were made by the sailors that you know personally ... our names are on the set of minutes. NOT the nameless and faceless big shots of USSA who are trying to "fleece the sailors"

Final point, The committee has not finalized anything yet... as you would see in the notes. In the 3 or 4 weeks of this committee we have ginned up out of NOTHING or worked with two clubs to get proposals for a fall event around two US world championships and 3 or 4 national championships

Soooo... Back to the big picture FOR THE FUTURE
What is an elite sailor Todd.... What is the Multihull championship about?

Help me out...

Just to be clear - I do not represent US Sailing in this matter and I'm not involved in the planning or execution of the event. I'm just making an observation. US Sailing owns the trophy. They own the name of the championship.

I think the word elite needs to be dropped. Elite sailors are Olympians and world champions, as stated before.
But what made an Alter Cup champ before was someone who had won in their area through qualifiers then beat others who had done the same at the Alter Cup finals, on EQUAL platforms. I'm not sure how this can be achieved equitably while using your own boat.Sounds as if this has turned into a plain old one design regatta, just for a really nice trophy.The previous qualifiers could have been won on any platform, thus doing so you may beat the rockstar of the chosen platform (F-16 in this example) on the boat your good on. From the sound of it,with an open invite,now he can show up and whip you on your chartered boat because he knows the platform. In the past he couldn't be there because you BEAT him in the qualifiers. I must be missing something because this seems to me to diminish the whole process.

Fair enough! (I think if you win your NA's... you are the elite sailor of that class in North America.)




To these 10 elite area sailors we will then add 10 additional elite sailors who are NA champs or at least top 10% from lots of OD classes or other categories.



Well I agree about the OD regatta and the nice trophy... don't understand the equity bit.



Ah ha..
Well no... He would have been invited had he won his Class NA's (elite sailor) OR he could have petitioned and the criteria are published on how the petitions were evaluated. Now ... if he did not care... he would not have spent his time or money to participate and use the charter boat.

I must be missing something because this seems to me to diminish the whole process.

Thanks
OK.... fact of life... we are in a BYOB championship period.
What should the championship look like???
We have 2 spin classes. 4 sloop classes and 4 Single handed classes.... All of whom hold NAs.

How would you put together a BYOB championship?

So your saying there are 10 NA champions? Because I stated that your area (their are 10 according to you) hotshot got beat by you. There is only one NA champion. Quit being obtuse. As far as how to put together your BYOB championship, does it really matter? No matter how you do it, it will carry less prestige than the nationals of the class that you use that year. It's just a regular regatta now. Why overthink it? I'll go ahead and answer that "Because it's what Mark does and that's why we love him." It was special because of what it was on rotated equal boats, it just won't be as special now, no biggie, just move on and accept that. I see the logic of why it was put so close to the F-16 Nats but I think you may have shot yourself in the foot on that one. I agree with Ding on this. Maybe it would be better to start fresh sans USS, even with a new trophy if need be. Like the mess with the Little America's Cup, 18 hts and Seacliff. I see alot of similarities.
Cliff notes: It's just a regular one design regatta now ,put it on as you would any other.

It sounds to me like the real problem here is trying to find a sponsor to pay for the use of 10 brand new boats to use for a "traditional" Alter Cup.

In the past, the boat manufacturers themselves have supplied the boats, but how about going outside that box, to someone like Red Bull Racing, or Coke, or Budwiser, etc. to see if they would be willing to pony up about $20,000 for the charter of 10 new cats and get exclusive advertising rights, magazine coverage, film at 11, etc.? (I'm guessing a charter fee of $2,000 per boat, for 10 new boats, but you get the idea.)

Has anyone at US Sailing tried to contact any of the Big Name sponsors, ala NASCAR, to sponsor the; "US Multihull Racing Championship"? Get ESPN to cover it, etc. Ask Jimmy Buffett to host it, at his new hotel on the beach up there in the panhandle. Do a Margaritaville theme. He can sell all his Land Shark beer, Margaritaville Tequila and a whole bunch of t-shirts too. http://www.margaritavillehotel.com/

Or tie it into the America's Cup or something, ask Larry Ellison of Oracle if he wants in, give him and Spithill a spot too! Or make him the Event Charimen, or something. $20K is pocket change for Larry. They blow that every time they rip a jib or crack a board on an AC 45.

The manufacturers have been more than generous in the past, but maybe it's time to find some 'new money' to sponsor this, if we want to keep it only for the Elite, ie. the National Champions from each class, vs. each other.

OR...tack it on to the end of Tradewinds and only allow the top 3 finishers from each class there to participate...but...we'd still have to find new boats, so...? Gonna need some money to charter them. Still going to have to find a sponsor.

Hey Timbo,

That is exactly the attitude I came into this with in October (it's not that much money). However, at that time, our numbers were in the $7,000 to $10,000 range, and have changed considerably since then (according to the team that did the research).

Having said that, even at the lower numbers, no one was ever able to pull this money together in the past, which is why the H/J fund was getting tapped to the tune of $7,000 per year for the past few cycles.

(... JW, feel free to refrain from adding a lament of past sponsor issues here...)

In 2011, the rules changed for sponsorship (as reported by Jack, Liz, Shannon and backed up by Jill, the doors are open to whatever we want to do, barring direct conflicts), but again, no one has come forward with big bucks to pull this off.

There's always hope for 2013, but someone needs to step up right away to make that happen.

And, even if we did pull that off, it doesn't solve the problem of raising attendance and being more inclusive, which are major goals of US Sailing, and supported by our survey.

Fortunately, we have some pretty open-minded folks on the committee, or we wouldn't have gotten this far for 2012...

Mike

When you say someone needs to step up right away...um...last time I got some sponsorship, I had to go to them and make the case that it would be worth their time and money, via publicity and brand exposure, etc. Has anyone called Larry Ellison? He already knows what a catamaran is, and should quickly understand exactly what it is we are trying to do, and you can sell it as 'gaining public awareness which will increase interest in his upcoming AC races in SFO..." or what have you. Has anyone called him? And or Jimmy Buffett? Tell him Larry Ellison wants to rent out his new hotel for a weekend of catamaran racing, etc.

These guys understand marketing, it shouldn't be too hard a pitch, easier still if you tell them they can race in it too! (give them a 'sponsor spot' and then try not to hit them)

Yes... 10 slots were reserved for classes, builders etc... all supposed to be top shelf (elite) sailors... the total number 20 was essential to make the rotation relegation scheme work.... So... 10 area qualifiers.. passing the bid down to the first guy who would accept plus a bunch of NA champions... passing the bid down to the first guy who would go.. plus some special catagories and youth.




Rotating on equal tunable high performance boats, makes this event special... really? HOW do you think this makes it special? Most of the survey thought it a real problem that they would only race half the time while they rotated boats...special is not the term they would use.


With a prestigious trophy that hopefully makes this a national event.

Forget about 2011-12... We are playing catch up...It's a pretty good job to have plan A and B. We are done with that issue....

So... now you get the picture... WHAT can you create that makes the US Multihull championship special?

Right, Timbo. By "someone" I am referring to a volunteer, not a genie to pop out of a bottle with a check in hand.

Sounds like you'd be the perfect guy for the job. When can you get this done?

Mike

I'm flying to Dubai on Thursday, if I see Larry or Jimmy I'll tell them they want in on this big beach party! I did bring the Coral Reefer Band back from Sydney last year, if I knew, I would've mentioned it to them.

USS has promotion of the Olympics as its primary purpose? If this is true and Olympians rig and tune their own boats then tuning is part of the discipline.

I'll risk being labeled a heretic: NOT permitting individual teams to tune their own boats was a major flaw of the old system.

Tuning is part of the discipline, tuning is good.

Go ahead and try talking to these people for sponsership and see how far you get even Johm Lovell had a hard time getting sponcership for the Olympics he paid for it mostly out of his pocket. I tried and got the same thing, most of our money is already tied up in NASCAR and there is no television coverage so there not interested in just throughing money away regardless of how much they have on us. We don't matter to them Hell give them a call I'm sure that Bert won't mind, neither will anyone else and you will be the hero that saved us all and the campionship ! ! ! !
And tuning does matter a boat tuned to your crew wieght is always going to faster, that is the beauty of equal boats it's up to the team not your boat and the best team will win not the team that shows up with the best tuned boat for there crew wieght. Give Ideas not critizium that is what this thread is for. So donate your boat and let them tune 10 the same and let the games begin ! ! ! ! !

Thanks!!!

So donate your boat and let them tune 10 the same and let the games begin ! ! ! ! !

NOW THERE IS A POSSIBLE SOLUTION!!

Planning is a year plus out... The events are run by a yacht club... Would you promise to lend your boat to a club (fully insured) and persuade your OD fleet to do the same?

Here's my take on getting sponsorship money. When I talked with the VP of Marketing at Delta Air Lines about throwing some money my way for new sails, he said he would rather spend a whole lot more money, to sponsor an EVENT, vs. a single individual. Why? Because at an Event, they put up banners and put their stickers on ALL the boats, etc.

Look no further than the "Audi Melges 20 Championships". http://www.melges20.com/

Audi didn't sponsor one person, they sponsored the Entire EVENT.

Also, I think I saw some big mono-race sponsored by VW, and then there's the Heineken Cup in St. Maarten. http://www.heinekenregatta.com/

Or the Mount Gay Rum regattas. http://www.sailbarbados.com/events_MG.html

Or the Rolex Regattas: http://www.rolexcupregatta.com/index2.php

That's the direction this needs to go, in my opinion.
The sponsors want visability, they want top billing, so give it to them.

Make it a huge beach party for the spectators, beach volly ball, a spectator fleet of big cats, maybe some Hobie Wave rentals off the beach for the on-lookers, stuff like that.

If I were king, here's what I would do. I'd get someone huge to sponsor a week long event, but it would really be two 3 day events. The first 3 days would be a big all classses regatta, which would serve as the Nationals for All cat classes, ie. you run the A's, the F18's, the F16's, the Hobie 16's, the Waves, etc. all at once, on 3 separate courses of course, but everyone all in one general location, big parties every night, like the mono guys do at Key West Race Week.

At the end of the first 3 day Nationals event, the top 3 from each class get to then race in the Alter Cup regatta, wich would be held on 10 (or 20) chartered boats, like our traditional Alter Cup, but the event sponsor is paying for the charter fee. The rest of us can hang out and watch, or maybe have a side regatta, or a Pro-Am, or a "Get a newbie out" type regatta, on a separate course, while the Alter Cup is going on for the last 3 days.

It would be like Tradewinds, where all the classes get together, and then it would be the Alter Cup, where just the top crews from each class race.

1) We have a sponsor that US Sailing negotiated.. Rolex. so for this championship... not an option.

2) What you are talking about requires a full time promoter... with some staff at times.. Pay grade is $0.00 unless you get paid by the sponsors.

So do you know anyone.... (other then Mr or Ms Somebody)

The larger point is... Check out the NOODS or Premire Key West... for this kind of professional model and see if you like it.

A private money-making organization does that promotional and organizational work... It recruits volunteers and their Yacht clubs in partnership to put on the events and negotiates the cost of real services. The price of the event is double what the same regatta organized by the volunteer RSA with the same yacht clubs and volunteers 3 months later charges.

NOODS are special!

If Sailing World did not do the work.... the regatta in my area would not happen... The organizational load is huge and unseen. Beyond that... the same regatta by any other name... Not Special!

So.... this gets to Todd's gripe.... blah blah blah... the regatta is not special....

What makes a regatta special then?

There is already a very big check written for the event. More than one, in fact. It doesn't reach the venue or the sailors, or in deference to Mike, it hasn't in the past. That won't change, no matter who is writing the check.

Don't get me wrong - great ideas and it is a good idea to seek additional sponsorship, but you need to be aware and comply with the current structure, and understand that much of any sponsorship raised is used to keep the lights on in Rhode Island.

Before I waste my time sending an email to Jimmy Buffet about sponsoring such an event, how many of you would show up for a Margaritaville Beach Party, (really a cat regatta, in disguise) to be held off the beach in front of his new hotel in Pensacola?

I would like it to be for all classes, maybe to serve as their Nationals, like Tradewinds, but in the summer (or fall) instead of January?

And then tack on the Alter Cup after that, unless US Sailing has an "issue" with us using that name and they not getting all the entry fees. In which case we could simply call it the Margaritaville Catamaran Championship.

CRAM ran cat fight for years and then handed it over to CRAW... same idea.

Hobie Div 11 does this already at Wildwood New Jersey with camping on the beach etc... a real throw back kind of thing.

Beach party's need the core of volunteers to make it happen... this core of volunteers tend to be different then the core that puts on a NA's. So, depends on what you got!

Would I be interested as a OD class NAs.... probably not. Ask the Hobie class if their MEGA events are worth it.
Its in the class's best interest to focus exclusively on what the class is about. You don't want to share your NA's on the water unless you can't afford it. You want all the sailors to eat drink and party as a class... having people wander off to see old friends in other classes dilutes the "class" Besides that, the resources you need get very very hard to find.

As an individual.. No!.... If I am inclined, I budget one NA's/ big event a season..... I would support my class event because that is the event that will be there next year and the year after and the year after until it isn't.

Would US championships be interested... Doubtful... One shot beach party.... not a good mix with a 25 year old trophy. The US championships searched and searched for a date BECAUSE IT SHOULD NOT CONFLICT with any OD class's NAs.. They need to be able to participate if they want...

John Williams has led you to believe that US Sailing is making money on this gig.. False!
US Sailing does not collect your entry fee... If you want to make a killing because you sell sponsorships like crazy and can pocket the entry fee.... Have at it.

If you want to loose your butt because you are giving back.... have at it...

The sailors... on those minutes approve a bottom line entry fee taking everything into consideration. It is the clubs business to make it work.


What is an Elite Sailor?
What's special about Championship?
What do individuals want of a US Multihull Championship?
What do OD classes want of a US Multihull Championship?

Best I have heard so far is... 10 owners to loan their boats. Does that fly???

Mark, have you been to Tradewinds? One of the reasons I LOVE it, is because I can meet and party with ALL the cat sailors, from every class and from all over the country, not just the ones from my little class. And the Hobie 16 guys even let me talk to their Chicks!

I also drive across the street to the Islander, just to see what the A cat guys are up to when I'm down there. It's all good. I just wish we were all staying in the same location for a bigger party when it's all over.

I think Catamaran Racing's biggest problem is Money, of course, but if we were to consolidate our many different Nationals into one big regatta, I think we would all benefit and might be able to draw in a big money sponsor, vs. a whole bunch of small "Nationals", one for each different class, spread all over the place.

Tradewinds, No... I am sure people love it... but it's too far a drive for a party/regatta.... YMMV.

If you could get your summer cat fight type party at Maragertiville.. you could get sailors to give it a tumble but it would be a regional event. Do you need another regional event?

I will flip it around... would you drive to American Yacht Club's 2 day HPDO... for a OD regatta with 110 boats last year and a banquet? (just F18's bother to play)

By and large... it's the SINGLE event a year NA Championship that gets sailors (who are so inclined) to strap on wheels and get to the regatta.
AND THAT IS A POTENTIAL ISSUE FOR US MULTIHULL CHAMPIONSHIP
In Todds terms... it's nothing special....

What makes a regatta special?
What makes an elite Sailor?
What should your OD class do about the US Multihull Championsips?

Color me flabbergasted. Mark, I only post in this topic when something needs to be corrected. US Sailing absolutely makes money on the Championships. Every one of them. They keep over half the sponsorship cash, and charge the host $50 per sailor. It was $25 per sailor when I started volunteering in 1999.

Do you have facts to refute this? I have several years worth of budgets - actual numbers on paper from hosts.

Edit - and I have no problem with US Sailing making money.

We had a tough enough time addressing boat maintenance between rotations and getting rotations fast (10 minutes on the beach was a great rotation)...imagine the delay if everyone was re-tuning their spreader rake, diamond wire tension, mast rake, etc. etc....Additionally, in the case of charter boats, what if someone made that adjustment and exceeded a setpoint, damaged the boat, and cost us a boat in our rotation. It just wouldn't be practical in the old scenario to allow the teams to make that level of adjustment.

The goal was to take most of "the boat" out of the equation and put the result at the hand of the sailors. A range of adjustments were usually established (light to heavy crew weight, light to heavy wind) and adjustments were put in the middle of this range. Sailor adjustments were pretty much limited to mainsheet cleat angle and trap height.

Rolex already sponsors all US Sailing Championships in addition to other sponsors...which, in the past, has limited any other sponsorship the individual event itself can garner. I have not been part of the sponsorship conversation as of late, so am not qualified to comment on the current arrangement.

+1
And Mark wants me to DONATE my boat for use. How'bout F*** Off and call Obama ,he'll give you a bailout, I'm sure.You've got alot of nerve Mark. Per your response to my last post, you either need to work on your reading skills or your spin/bullshite skills are already honed, I can't figure out which it is.

NASCAR doesn't try to "take the boat out of the equation". Tuning is an essential part of sailing or any other type of racing.

Equally NASCAR doesn't have drivers change cars; the Olympics doesn't require a boat swap.

Maybe sprinters should change shoes between heats, pole vaulters exchange poles, tennis players exchange rackets...

Hmm alsail.... might be tougher then you think to get people to lend their boat...

Just as a point of reference, at the Championship of Champions that I sailed in last fall, ALL the boats (20 Flying Scots) were donated by club members (Dallas Corinthian). In return, the donors received significantly discounted new sails (main, jib, spin) with only 4 days of sailing on them. All the boats were set up more-or-less identically (some of the control layouts were different). Everybody raced each boat once (in every race). Rotations were made on the water, utilizing a floating dock that was towed out to the racing area each day.

Re. the tuning and rotating boats, if we got enough boats so that each team had one, or limit the amount of teams to only 10, then you wouldn't have to share boats, ie. no rotations, so each team could tweak their prebend and mast rake to their liking, for the entire regatta.

You'd get in a lot more races per day without having to rotate boats after every race as well.

Hey, I'll gladly 'donate' my boat, for a new mainsail!

Aaah, but they DO! It's called the NASCAR IROC series (Internatinoal Race of Champions). They race in identically prepared cars. In their case, however, they can afford for each driver to have their own car. The Alter Cup Championships in the past couldn't afford 20 boats or an event with only 10 teams...so a compromise was created.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Race_of_Champions

It's not the point of donating a boat, that's not the problem. It's donating a boat under the guise that the event can't afford to do it any other way. That's BS.
Maybe it's time to let the Alter Cup end it's useful life in a dignified way ,instead of turning it into something else that diminishes it's status. Start something else if wanted but start with a clean sheet.

It was IROC (International Race of Champions) that had identically prepared race cars. The drivers came from all sorts of racing "classes"; Indy, NASCAR, GT, Grand-AM...etc. Makes complete sense. It's about the driver. Don't mock what has been a great event with poor analogies.

Before the Hoyt-Jolley Fund was generously donated by Bill Jolley (thanks to Gordon Isco), the Alter Cup was supported by donated boats.

I've heard any number of complaints about too many races in a day! It's a speed event not endurance. Endurance is for events like Tybee.

True, but then entry fees would double from an already high figure because it's harder to afford a regatta of that magnitude with only 10 entry fees.

I'm not mocking anything, though I will if I choose! Is IROC still around?

Maybe the World Series should try playing with one set of gloves and bats. Some of the finest hitters in the world go to great lengths to make sure their bats are "just so".

Funny you should ask...similar to what we're faced with, they couldn't find sponsors to sustain the event they'd had in place since the 70's and sold everything of in 2008. Just like the Alter Cup, they took in champions from other driving disciplines (mostly oval track stuff though).

Why lend? Why not charter the boats from individuals? Then get the manufacturer or sailmaker to supply sails that could be sold for cost after the regatta(money goes back to the manufacture/sailmaker). The manufacture/sailmaker gets the FREE advertising.
No contribution/ No advertising.
I thought I had read that the budget is 7K for charter boats. That would be $700 per owner.

Now the questions become:
How many people would provide a charter boat without sails for $700?
Could you get 10 charter boats of the same make?
And is there a market for these sails at cost?
Would a manufacture/sailmaker commit?

A lot of top athletes have all sorts of weird quirks about their equipment!

Can you imagine playing the Masters with one set of clubs?

I can't imagine 10 privately owned boats being in the same condition, particularly the bottoms.

This is your spin John. You are not correcting anything!



How about "they lump a bunch of services together which cost money and charge an overhead fee of 50 bucks to pay for them..... across the board to all championships".

All I know is that a staff person has been on the conference calls for over 10 hours from 8 to 11 PM on a couple of occasions trying to keep the cats in line....

You were chair.... did you ever contact the other championship chairs and rally the other sailors around this perceived unfairness that US Sailing was getting the math wrong?

The overhead fee is what it is... Clubs bid knowing the deal.
Championship committee members see it in the budget sheet BEFORE THE CLUB FILLS IT OUT.

I have no idea what other championship committees think of the fee. Do you? Got any records you want to send over? Debating the fair market value of the stuff.... is a waste of time right now.

So... why the spin?

What is your goal here... make the conditions clear to the public? Drive an agenda? Cry me a river?

It seems that you want MS SOMEBODY to take on forming a new Multihull Championship. Find a sponsor... a group of volunteers WITH a Yacht Club or beach access and equipment to run an event. AND give the usual cast of characters a huge subsidy of boats and food for a regatta.... and this WILL be special. Actually sounds great to me. I would love to come. Let me know when the NOR is published.

Until then... Cut the spin crap.
It is not US Sailing controlling... it is a Commitee of sailors. It is a Yacht Club of sailors with an event proposal .. It is a PRO and Class Chair of sailors putting on an event.

The Championship committee is working on picking up the pieces of the 2011-12 Championship...Call Eric and Kevin for details. Final Details will be published soon. The minutes are clear and detailed.

We will BE WORKING on 2012-13 ASAP.

So... What is an elite sailor?
What is special about a championship?
What should One design Classes Do with the US Sailing Multihull Championship?

So far... I have heard:
get sailors to lend their boats and run the old program.
Get a big sponsor and work in the existing system.
Get a big sponsor and toss the system creating a new championship.
Borrow boats and get a manufacturer to provide new sails for the regatta and then resell them... for the marketing value of stickers on the sail.
???

I thought they were required to only use one set of clubs per event? no?

Mark, you can try to drown me in BS, but that doesn't make you correct. You say US Sailing doesn't make money on the event. You're factually incorrect. There is no spin. It is machine language 1 or 0.

Clumsey wording on my part! I meant one set for the entire field! But the intent was "reduction to absurdity".

A better point would have been that one driver or putter won't fit every golfer, due to physical differences.

John you infer that US Sailing was making 50 bucks a sailor for the volunteers to run the regatta.

Do you want to stand by that inference?.

Perhaps you want to define... US Sailing MAKES MONEY.

Back on track.

So... What is an elite sailor?
What is special about a championship?
What should One design Classes Do with the US Sailing Multihull Championship?

So far... I have heard:
get sailors to lend their boats and run the old program.
Get a big sponsor and work in the existing system.
Get a big sponsor and toss the system creating a new championship.
Borrow boats and get a manufacturer to provide new sails for the regatta and then resell them... for the marketing value of stickers on the sail.
???

Pete, although the tuning discussion is a moot point unless we can get back to provided boats in some way or another, I do agree with you in principle. However, NASCAR guys keep their cars through the whole race (no rotation), and own their own cars; so the time sink to the event and risks to third-party owners mentioned by Jake don't exist for them. Sort of apples to oranges.

So tuning of provided boats is out, unless we wanted to have an event where the boats are only swapped daily (so as to avoid the speed of change issue), or not at all (lottery pick, keep the boat for the whole event). And before anyone spouts about how unfair the latter option would be, know that this is the norm for many high-profile (and $$$$$$) events, some even run by IROs, and is considered acceptably fair. NYYC Invitational on (privately-owned) Swan 42s comes to mind.

As for donating sails, again, no option is off the table. Just to be clear, Matt didn't say "free sails," you basically pay cost (or something along those lines). This really only works where you have a large enough existing fleet, and takes effort by the OA and manufacturers (and any other sponsor they can line up to offset the cost), but is a great option.

As to comments about MEGA, it has been one of the most successful things the HCA has done. Class members love it. The reason it isn't done every year is that some folks like to race in more than one Hobie NAs (having them all at once forces you to pick just one), and it is a TON of work for the organizers, especially when being done at a remote location.

I love the outside-the-box thinking. The festival of regattas certainly has potential, and would be a great thing to get everyone together as a unified force of multihull sailors for US Sailing to see. I don't see doing this every year, but every 5 or 10 years would be cool. Cooler than any other reunion, at least...

Mike