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Re: portsmouth [Re: Matt M] #124265
11/20/07 02:40 PM
11/20/07 02:40 PM
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brucat Offline
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Aside from the Alter Cup and H16 Worlds on supplied new boats there is no such thing as 1 design. Model year changes, deteriation of the boats, new vs. used equipment etc.


Pretty sure I completely disagree with this definition of one-design.

You absolutely, positively don't have to have a brand new boat to win in Hobie 16s (arguably the toughest/deepest fleet in the country). You should maintain it, and all upgrades that are allowed into the class rules become available for anyone to implement on an older boat. But to say that a boat that is a few years old is no longer one design is QUITE a stretch.

Mike

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: portsmouth [Re: brucat] #124266
11/20/07 03:21 PM
11/20/07 03:21 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
pbisesi Offline
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Oh Mikey, You are kind of new here and now you have been drawn in. Brace yourself.

I think that you race portsmouth when you have to and one design when you can.
There are probably a lot of guys out there that have never raced in a 60 boat one design event. It's hard to explain if you haven't been there.

Mark: The Madcatter makes up Trophies well ahead of time. We give the trophies away. What else should we do with them? Some years the numbers are there and everyone gets a start. When the numbers are not there, all the small groups get one start. It's kind of hard to slam what could be argued as the most successful weekend regatta in the country. I would bet there isn't a close second for a ten year boat average.
I do think you and I agree on the importance of the social scene at these events.
Come May I will fire up the grills, as always, and make sure the rum flows. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Pat Bisesi Fleet 204
Re: portsmouth [Re: pbisesi] #124267
11/20/07 03:35 PM
11/20/07 03:35 PM

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Guys:

Let's just sail, race and have fun. Who gives a *))()* what you sail. We do it for the love of the sport and as long as you aren't hurting anyone, who cares if you win or loose? Enough.

Doug

Re: portsmouth [Re: pbisesi] #124268
11/20/07 03:53 PM
11/20/07 03:53 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline
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I don't understand why Hobie doesn't allow the less than (insert number here) fleets to be raced together in a portsmouth start. Granted more work for the RC, but other than tracking time and scoring software what are the drawbacks?

Gives Karl something to do while his FX-One fleet is under construction and until the TheMightyHobie18 can't get it up any more.


John H16, H14
Re: portsmouth [Re: pbisesi] #124269
11/20/07 04:10 PM
11/20/07 04:10 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Pat, I am not slaming the mad catter. I point out the one disconnect in your great event. A 9 boat regatta and the 90 boat madcatter are not comparable. But... you have to admit... when a club trophies two boats in a class... the only thing that can trump it is a club that trophied a one boat class and you guys came to mind.

I think you miss an opportunity to get the dead hobie boats scattered throughout the north east to your event. If you gave people a racing reason to come by putting those odd hobie dead boats into a HOBIE portsmouth class... I bet you would get more of them to make the Madcatter the one event they would do in a year... (who knows... the spark might reignite and the next thing you know... they want a tiger.)

My point is... year after year of giving away a Hobie 20 trophy or an FX1 trophy or an 18SX trophy has not generated a class... (not to mention the questions of what is the rationale for why you would buy these trophies based on the past turnout in these classes in the first place)

Perhaps the possiblity of a race in a portsmouth fleet of dead boat society hobies and the great party would give you a better outcome.

We all agree
The goal is to grow the fleet through racing!

If you think that running OD races with one or two boats is a growth strategy... OK... show me some evidence.

I propose the alternative above.

Somebody asked... What's the harm with lot of trophies... Well, the YC's that I work with get really bent out of shape in giving trophies out with out a reason. The old school guys value the competition... not the participation. So... they sniff a bit... if I ask for trophies that go too deep.
Do they notice what we do in our own events... I don't know... Since we are trying to build our standing the in larger sailing community... I don't see any merrit in bucking this culture.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: portsmouth [Re: Mark Schneider] #124270
11/20/07 05:10 PM
11/20/07 05:10 PM
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brucat Offline
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Thanks Pat. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mark, I don't think there's any harm in running events / awarding trophies any way the host club sees fit. With any luck, they know what their members / racers want, and are trying to meet that need.

If a Hobie club wants to give trophies to everyone and their babysitter (hey, I could use one of those next summer), GREAT! If a yacht club wants everyone to wear blazers while they give out three trophies, that's up to them. The sailors will support the events they like, and most of the time, it has more to do with the sailing and social scene than trophies, lunches, etc.

Mike

Re: portsmouth [Re: Mark Schneider] #124271
11/20/07 05:12 PM
11/20/07 05:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Quote

The only thing that would be crazier is if you each had your own start!


Awesome idea! I'll request for next year.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
MAKE IT STOP! [Re: fin.] #124272
11/20/07 05:14 PM
11/20/07 05:14 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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How many times do we need to talk about this. I'm going the global warming thread.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: portsmouth [Re: writer] #124273
11/21/07 09:54 AM
11/21/07 09:54 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,246
Orlando, FL
tback Offline
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tback  Offline
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Orlando, FL
Quote
including Access Dinghies with challenged folks sailing.


That was worth the entry to see them getting rewarded with trophies. (oh and it was mentioned that the dinner was AWESOME ... and they had enough for 2nds).

I'll go back ...


USA 777
Re: portsmouth [Re: brucat] #124274
11/21/07 10:10 AM
11/21/07 10:10 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 395
LA
Acat230 Offline
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LA
[quote
You absolutely, positively don't have to have a brand new boat to win in Hobie 16s (arguably the toughest/deepest fleet in the country). [/quote]

Ummm well the A-Class sailors might disagree with you for bragging rights on that one! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

We are trying to get a club one design sailing program going again at my yacht club. We have a mix of Lasers, 420's, Flying Scots, Sunfish, an I-14, and my A-Class. If we can get 8-10 boats sailing on the weekend, that is a big first step and we believe racing Portsmouth with a mixed fleet is the first direction we will go. The hope is interest in specific one designs will develop from there. My hope is getting lapped by an A-Class will open the eyes of some dinghy folks who think catamaran peformance has not progressed beyond the original Hobies and Prindles of the 70's and 80's.

I do agree that the odds are typically stacked against a well sailed non-spinnaker boat racing a well sailed spinnaker boat in Portsmouth. I don't believe the Portsmouth numbers of many spinnaker boats actually reflect how fast they actually are but I am sure they will evolve.

Re: portsmouth [Re: brucat] #124275
11/21/07 10:35 AM
11/21/07 10:35 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 40
Florida
Kathryn Offline
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Kathryn  Offline
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Florida
I would most definitely fall into the category of hating Portsmouth racing to the point that I quit going to events that did not have enough boats for one design racing and did no racing in Florida for several years before finding a one design boat that was being raced.
My reasons are: I race not only improve my own sailing skill but to also prove my skill. I want to improve boat speed and tactics. If you are not sailing the same boat that I am on, whatever it might be, then the comparison is mathematical and the race is a drag race not necessarily tactical and I don't enjoy that. Also as accurate as the Portsmouth ratings might be for some boats, they are not good for all conditions. I want to know that I won or lost because of my actions not because of ratings. To most sailors, I appreciate that it is about getting out on the water with friends and having fun and Portsmouth ratings allows multiple classes of boats to do that.


Kathryn Garlick Evolution, 28R, #185
Re: portsmouth [Re: Acat230] #124276
11/21/07 10:37 AM
11/21/07 10:37 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
pbisesi Offline
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pbisesi  Offline
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Syracuse,N.Y
Sorry Ding, It's cold up here, so for the next five months we will "debate" online about how to increase our numbers, promote youth sailing and the merits of one design.

Mark: I'm just keeping you honest. I have always believed that giving away a lot of trophies, t-shirts, food, drink etc.. is good for the event.
When I chaired the 16 NAC in Syracuse, I promised my 9 year old daughter she would "Win" a trophey. To make that happen we gave away a competitor trophy to everyone that showed up.
The kids in the youth event cheered every team announced from the bottom to the top like champions. It was very cool and provided some insight into what is important to them.

Doug: I wonder if it does matter what boat you sail. It seems that on a National level that the H16, the F18 and the A cats can field large events. If more sailors gravitated to these classes wouldn't it make our sport stronger? I could debate both sides of many of these issues and am not sure myself what is best. Food for winter thought.

Happy Thanksgiving


Pat Bisesi Fleet 204
Re: portsmouth [Re: Kathryn] #124277
11/21/07 10:58 AM
11/21/07 10:58 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
pbisesi Offline
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pbisesi  Offline
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Syracuse,N.Y
Wow, Kathryn Garlic
How about posting a picture of your new toy.
Say hi to Paul, Have a good holiday season and we will see you at the Madcatter.


Pat Bisesi Fleet 204
Re: portsmouth [Re: John Williams] #124278
11/21/07 10:59 AM
11/21/07 10:59 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 503
BrianK Offline
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Quote
We had 262 boats in 17 classes last weekend in Long Beach. The cats got put into the Portsmouth start along with 570s, 420s, and other oddities. The numbers didn't seem to work too badly - we were over early for the first start, went back and scored deep as expected. We hit one start just right, sailed a textbook race, and corrected out for the bullet. For a couple of the shortest races, all the boats corrected to within a minute - pretty tight. Ratings ranged from our 62.4 to 97.7. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


Mono West Coast Sellout. What happened to you.

Re: portsmouth [Re: brucat] #124279
11/21/07 11:26 AM
11/21/07 11:26 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 548
MERRITTISLAND, FL
Matt M Offline
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Matt M  Offline
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Posts: 548
MERRITTISLAND, FL
Mike,

I fully agree that you do not need a new boat to win any championship. I was just trying to point out that there are always going to be differences in equipment and hence excusses around the keg after as to why some one beat some one else. When I was racing the H16 there was constant talk of who had the new sails, or boat or who was lighter etc.

I would much prefer everyone be on the same boat, but that is not viable where I sail now. I do this for my social outlet. Part of that is competition. And although it is not a perfect tactical 1 design scenario, I still judge myself by the boats I am around without regard to the rating. I am not doing this for trophies, but fun. I want to try and have better mark roundings, sail sets, starts etc than those I am racing against whether its a H16, I20 or a F18.

All of this is about getting more people out to events. There is not enough participation for large 1 design fleets very many palces. The people and the party is what keeps me going to these anyway.

The other item for me and this may not be true for anyone else, but I want to enjoy the sail while I am doing it. Competition is very attractive, but if the whole world decided to move to Waves, I would likely bow out. The Wave for me, competion or not, is not fun in less than 25 knots of wind and that does not happen to often in FL.

I am bringing my kids into this now and as long as I can still raise my mast and they have cold beer, I want to keep going. If Portsmouth is what we have, so be it.

Matt

Re: portsmouth [Re: Matt M] #124280
11/21/07 11:38 AM
11/21/07 11:38 AM
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brucat Offline
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I knew that would come up, Bob. Surprised it took so long. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Matt, you're right, some people will always find an excuse for losing. Some folks (like Donald Trump) would say that THAT'S WHY THEY'RE LOSERS!!! Winners find ways to win, period.

I've sailed Portsmouth events, even won a couple. Not my first choice (compared to SMOD), but better than sitting at home cutting the grass...

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

Mike

Re: portsmouth [Re: Kathryn] #124281
11/21/07 12:29 PM
11/21/07 12:29 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 168
San Diego
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hokie Offline
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Quote
I would most definitely fall into the category of hating Portsmouth racing to the point that I quit going to events that did not have enough boats for one design racing and did no racing in Florida for several years before finding a one design boat that was being raced.
My reasons are: I race not only improve my own sailing skill but to also prove my skill. I want to improve boat speed and tactics. If you are not sailing the same boat that I am on, whatever it might be, then the comparison is mathematical and the race is a drag race not necessarily tactical and I don't enjoy that. Also as accurate as the Portsmouth ratings might be for some boats, they are not good for all conditions. I want to know that I won or lost because of my actions not because of ratings. To most sailors, I appreciate that it is about getting out on the water with friends and having fun and Portsmouth ratings allows multiple classes of boats to do that.


I agree that one design is ideal but how can you say racing portsmouth will not improve your speed and tactics? If anything you need to do these better in case there is a boat that favors the conditions that day. You probably also have a greater chance of encountering more and better sailors than if you race in a small isolated OD fleet. For most cases I would think your position within a portsmouth or OD fleet is probably going to be relatively the same if you actually have good competition in your OD fleet. This is especially the case when the portsmouth fleet is large enough to be split into spin/nonspin and/or A/B fleets.

And as far as the prove your skill thought, who are you proving this too? Do you really care if the guy in the aquacat sailing his first race thinks you are a good sailor, or do you think if he beats you he is going to think you have no clue what you are doing? I know I have never gone onto a race course to assert my superiority (or inferiority <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> ) or seen someone else do that, and if I did meet someone like that I would probably avoid them.

Re: portsmouth [Re: hokie] #124282
11/21/07 01:53 PM
11/21/07 01:53 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Quote
Quote
I would most definitely fall into the category of hating Portsmouth racing to the point that I quit going to events that did not have enough boats for one design racing and did no racing in Florida for several years before finding a one design boat that was being raced.
My reasons are: I race not only improve my own sailing skill but to also prove my skill. I want to improve boat speed and tactics. If you are not sailing the same boat that I am on, whatever it might be, then the comparison is mathematical and the race is a drag race not necessarily tactical and I don't enjoy that. Also as accurate as the Portsmouth ratings might be for some boats, they are not good for all conditions. I want to know that I won or lost because of my actions not because of ratings. To most sailors, I appreciate that it is about getting out on the water with friends and having fun and Portsmouth ratings allows multiple classes of boats to do that.


I agree that one design is ideal but how can you say racing portsmouth will not improve your speed and tactics? If anything you need to do these better in case there is a boat that favors the conditions that day. You probably also have a greater chance of encountering more and better sailors than if you race in a small isolated OD fleet. For most cases I would think your position within a portsmouth or OD fleet is probably going to be relatively the same if you actually have good competition in your OD fleet. This is especially the case when the portsmouth fleet is large enough to be split into spin/nonspin and/or A/B fleets.

And as far as the prove your skill thought, who are you proving this too? Do you really care if the guy in the aquacat sailing his first race thinks you are a good sailor, or do you think if he beats you he is going to think you have no clue what you are doing? I know I have never gone onto a race course to assert my superiority (or inferiority <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> ) or seen someone else do that, and if I did meet someone like that I would probably avoid them.


Nothing will improve your skill better than sailing with like boats. If a Supercat 20TR pass you while you are on a Hobie 16 you are not going to learn much about making your boat faster. If a Hobie 16 rolls over instead, you can learn something about how they have set their sails, how their weight is positioned, how they are working the tiller or sails, etc to determine how they bettered you. The Supercat was going to pass you anyway (or vice-versa).

I sailed Portsmouth for the first three years I sailed and I started to get really frustrated because no matter how many books and theory I would read, I wasn't getting any better. Once I bought the F18, I was sorely at the back of the pack but quickly improved to the point that I can compete with the big dogs occasionally. Same goes for my Nacra 20 experience.

You just can't learn to be fast in an open mixed fleet sailing apples against oranges.

BUT WAIT! I'm not saying portsmouth isn't worthy. Handicap racing provides racing for people who don't have a class to support their choice in boat. Versus not racing at all, I will race handicap - but I would choose some form of one design racing any day.


Jake Kohl
Re: portsmouth [Re: Jake] #124283
11/21/07 02:26 PM
11/21/07 02:26 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Annapolis, MD
Quote
You just can't learn to be fast in an open mixed fleet sailing apples against oranges.


Jake, I agree with your point on learning IF you take it to the extreme but isn't this a red herring. The issue is... two boat one design racing ... or 6 boats in a spinaker portsmouth race where 4 of the boats are virtually level rated with two boats that are aprox 3 minutes per hour faster or 9 boats in an overall race.

This situation comes up all the time for small regattas.

So, Like Timbo?? I don't understand the reasons for taking nine boats and choping them into 4 classes for the weekend.
Like him, I would want to race the other 8 teams... not just the guy in my OD class. The big fleet is how I would view the race.

Would the majority of sailors in Fla rather race two boats OD then 6 spin boats PN or 9 boats overall PN?

I also don't understand the long term strategy for keeping racing going in that area. How does a two boat one design race lead to more racers on the water.

How do you see this working?... Is it practical?

The ONLY place that you might point to would be the Tiger fleet centered in Syracuse. In this instance, the Yacht Club (Hobie Class Assn) did what any YC could do... No other boats that would compete with this boat class are allowed to race in our regional events. So... If you want to race a spin boat... you HAVE to get a Tiger.

Pat sort of refered to this. When he asked... would it not be better for the national racing scene to have 3 boats. H16, A class and F18?

Of course as soon as you have another club or those pesky f16 guys do their own thing... or the Nacra 20 guys get organized and do their thing.. the monopoly is broken and your ability to grow from two boats to 10 is limited.

So... if you can't control access to the racing.... I don't see how you can make this OD strategy work.

Mark


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: portsmouth [Re: hokie] #124284
11/21/07 02:32 PM
11/21/07 02:32 PM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 206
Yardley PA
DanWard Offline
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Yardley PA
And as far as the prove your skill thought, who are you proving this too? Do you really care if the guy in the aquacat sailing his first race thinks you are a good sailor, or do you think if he beats you he is going to think you have no clue what you are doing? I know I have never gone onto a race course to assert my superiority (or inferiority <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> ) or seen someone else do that, and if I did meet someone like that I would probably avoid them. [/quote]

It's not about personal superiority, (Were just getting blown around in little plastic boats.) Itís asserting superior sailing skill and thereís nothing wrong with it. It goes to the heart of competitiveness. Kathryn is a very accomplished sailor and understands that it is all about measuring, improving and demonstrating skill, both to your self and to your competitors. You have seen it; itís why we try to cross the finish line first. Portsmouth racing is less satisfying because it obscures the demonstration of skill.

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