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Kids Cats - Parents input requested. #125409
12/03/07 01:37 PM
12/03/07 01:37 PM
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phill Offline OP
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Folks,
Since posting some renderings of the computer model of a design I'm working on in a thread called
"This one is for the Kids".I've had various comments and suggestions.

While this is still being developed it would be handy to get some input from parents on a couple of
possibilities regarding the configuration of a Cat for kids under the age of 12.

There are 3 possible configurations being considered and the input I'd like is related to these configurations
when considering the corresponding costs of each.

1) Spade rudders and Skegs
[Linked Image]

2) Deep Rudders and Skegs =1) + $700 to $1000 (estimated additional production cost)
[Linked Image]

3) Deep rudders and Centre Boards = 2) + $1000 (estimated additional production cost)

[Linked Image]
Points to note:-
I will test all configurations to quantify performance differences.
Home builders would not incurr cost as high as these but will pay in the form of building time.

Interested in Comments.

Attached Files
Last edited by phill; 12/03/07 01:45 PM.

I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Kids Cats - Parents input requested. [Re: phill] #125410
12/03/07 01:56 PM
12/03/07 01:56 PM

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Phil:

I vote for number 3 as a grand parent who trained my 14 yr. old grand daughter on my H-17, since she was 6 or 7, wish I would of had this then. Will consider this if 8 yr. old twins come to Fla. It should give the kids the feel almost of an A cat and get them ready for the newer boats with boards when they are big enough to move on (like your Blade F-16). GREAT design, keep up the good work.

Just my 2 cents from 27 years out there.

Doug

Last edited by DougSnell; 12/03/07 01:59 PM.
Re: Kids Cats - Parents input requested. [Re: ] #125411
12/03/07 03:55 PM
12/03/07 03:55 PM
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Syracuse,N.Y
pbisesi Offline
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John Williams had a timely post about dagger boards today.

I think you are asking way to much from the under 12 crowd to operate boards and to much from the run of the mill home builder to build a hull with a well.
The rudder lock down needs to work very easy and not require much strength.

Phil: The designs are great. I continue to wonder in the microwave world of the USA how many people will take on such a project.

My vote would be # 2


Pat Bisesi Fleet 204
Re: Kids Cats - Parents input requested. [Re: pbisesi] #125412
12/03/07 04:05 PM
12/03/07 04:05 PM
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MERRITTISLAND, FL
Matt M Offline
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Quote
John Williams had a timely post about dagger boards today.

I think you are asking way to much from the under 12 crowd to operate boards and to much from the run of the mill home builder to build a hull with a well.
The rudder lock down needs to work very easy and not require much strength.

Phil: The designs are great. I continue to wonder in the microwave world of the USA how many people will take on such a project.

My vote would be # 2


Pat,

The Opti is still the biggest kids training boat out there and they have no issue with having board as does every other mono-hull typically used to move up from there.

That being said I agree it is more work and or cost and of questionable performance gain for kids at the level this is being designed for.

High aspect rudders however do have a considerably different feel and I feel would be worth having.

My preference fo my kids boat would be #2 as well.

Matt

Re: Kids Cats - Parents input requested. [Re: ] #125413
12/03/07 04:10 PM
12/03/07 04:10 PM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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I don't like the looks of the spade rudders and skegs, but I like the rationale behind them. As long as manouverability is maintained I think they are vey practical. I have observed beginning optimist sailors struggle to get their foils in place after launching when they launch off a ramp. Same for coming back to the ramp. Not having to worry about the foils when launching or coming back is great. Same for sailing in shallow waters, just no worries about damaging foils. The skegs would protect the spade rudders, so with metal lists on the skegs the boat can be dragged over gravel or even concrete with the ruddes in place. Makes rigging, storage and retrieving/launching easier and faster. Not having daggerboards is a good safety measure if the boat suddenly stops with the boards up. Those trailing edges are pretty sharp if you hit them at speed. To boot the spade rudders are the cheapest as well, should be an easy solution in my opinion. I sure hope our youngest will be interested in a couple of years!

Re: Kids Cats - Parents input requested. [Re: phill] #125414
12/03/07 04:30 PM
12/03/07 04:30 PM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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keeping in mind that I don't have kids, I do like version #1 if handling isn't compromised with the stubby rudders. Can you imagine it on the trailer? You can completely leave the rudders in place AND you lose all the complication with a rudder up and down system.


Jake Kohl
Re: Kids Cats - Parents input requested. [Re: phill] #125415
12/03/07 04:34 PM
12/03/07 04:34 PM
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Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Phil,

Preferably the boat should be simpler to rig than an Optimist or Laser.

Would it be possible to fix one daggerboard cassete in the central truss?

From the 3 available options, my vote goes to #2 (but the spade rudders should be dagger-rudders like those of the 29er).


Luiz
Re: Kids Cats - Parents input requested. [Re: phill] #125416
12/03/07 04:44 PM
12/03/07 04:44 PM
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Central California
ejpoulsen Offline
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Phill,

I have several kids, so I can speak with some experience here on what I'd like. The design looks absolutely stunning. In fact, I'll take two asap. As a parent, here's what I'd like to see:

--boat weight about 150lbs so a 12 year old could move it around on beach wheels
--high aspect rudders but skeg keel (spade rudders spin out too easily when flying a hull)
--car toppable
--minimize fittings with loosable parts (eg shackle pins)
--if there will not be a trapeze, an unstayed rig would be great too; put the mast in the hole and go.


Eric Poulsen
A-class USA 203
Ultimate 20
Central California
Re: Kids Cats - Parents input requested. [Re: Luiz] #125417
12/03/07 04:46 PM
12/03/07 04:46 PM
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offshore
peter_nelson Offline
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The feel of the helm with deep rudders is very important. The added performance/cost of the daggers isn't justified at this level.

#2.


Time Warp Racing
Hobie 14, 16, & 17, Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 45.2
Re: Kids Cats - Parents input requested. [Re: phill] #125418
12/03/07 06:20 PM
12/03/07 06:20 PM
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fort Myers, FL
arievd Offline
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#2 would be my preference, for the reasons already discussed above.


Arie
Hobie 16 111812
Re: Kids Cats - Parents input requested. [Re: arievd] #125419
12/03/07 06:50 PM
12/03/07 06:50 PM
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Florida
soulcat01 Offline
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It's looking sweet.

#2 is tried and true.

HMMMM looks very familiar though.

Where have I seen a similar boat...

Deep rudder, no shrouds, skeg. All it needs is to be a little narrower and have a roller furling main sail and it would look very similar to:

[Linked Image]

That sailor is definitely under 12 too.

Re: Kids Cats - Parents input requested. [Re: phill] #125420
12/03/07 07:08 PM
12/03/07 07:08 PM
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Colorado
SteveT Offline
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As someone mentioned before, if the rudders were VERY easy to lock down, I like version 2. I have kids and the centerboard, while great for performance and handling, is too much for a younger sailor (hell, it's too much for many older sailors) and would eventually lead to a grounding and damage. The centerboard in an opti is easier because the boat is slower and there is only one. I think what makes a boat fun for kids - particularly those who are beginner to intermediate in skill - is forgiving handling. If it easily gets trapped irons or is quickly overpowered, I think many kids will be frustrated or scared away. That's the beauty of the Opti, or Hobie Wave, or Laser Radial.


H-20 #896
Re: Kids Cats - Parents input requested. [Re: soulcat01] #125421
12/03/07 07:12 PM
12/03/07 07:12 PM
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Cincinnati, Ohio
Tri_X_Troll Offline
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I think design number 2 is right on the money. The skegs are the way to go, provided that they are durable.

What kind of surface area are we looking at on the sail?

Having started off at that age with a sunfish, I think rigging more like a sunfish would make it more easier for a 10-12 year old.

Perhaps something with "reef points" on the sail? Then parents would have the option of powering the boat down for smaller kids.

Last edited by Tri_X_Troll; 12/03/07 07:23 PM.

Ryan - H16 I prefer to go sailing because baseball, football, tennis, and golf only require 1 ball!
Re: Kids Cats - Parents input requested. [Re: SteveT] #125422
12/03/07 07:15 PM
12/03/07 07:15 PM

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Phil:

Seems be #2 is getting the vote. I have skeg keels on the Mystere 4.3 and they work GREAT. I can point good and have no problem catching most of the boats till they put there chute up. Remember one time catching a Hobie 16 that was WAY ahead of me and passing him.

Doug

Re: Kids Cats - Parents input requested. [Re: Jake] #125423
12/03/07 07:23 PM
12/03/07 07:23 PM

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Quote
keeping in mind that I don't have kids, I do like version #1 if handling isn't compromised with the stubby rudders. Can you imagine it on the trailer? You can completely leave the rudders in place AND you lose all the complication with a rudder up and down system.


Jake:

Spade rudders will be to short. THINK about what happens when of your rudders kicks up while sailing now? EVEN on my little 4.3, which at 240 lbs is 160 lbs or so lighter than your I-20, I get weather helm like hell with it up, even though some is still in the water. PLUS vibration and wind flapping from trailer speed would beat them to death. I am constantly advising newbie to take there damm rudders off and put them in box or car. Friend has his run into with rudders on and wiped them out.

Just my 2 cents,

Doug

Last edited by DougSnell; 12/03/07 11:48 PM.
Re: Kids Cats - Parents input requested. [Re: ] #125424
12/03/07 08:33 PM
12/03/07 08:33 PM
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Sydney Australia
Berny Offline
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Phill, as I said before, if your intention is to put out plans for home builders, why not simply offer the three options? This would support a developing level of competition amongst builders and sailors which might make the whole catamaran learning process more demonstrative, encompassing, extensive and complete, thus better preparing them for their future in catamaran sailing/racing.

The Sabot has a daggerboard and a blade rudder.

I also like the center fin case for a single fin which could be a fourth option, covering all the bases.

Berny

Attached Files
126639-JAMIE.jpg (83 downloads)
Re: Kids Cats - Parents input requested. [Re: Berny] #125425
12/03/07 10:52 PM
12/03/07 10:52 PM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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I think the appearance of a center fin on a cat is atrocious. Would much rather have the skegs.


Jake Kohl
Re: Kids Cats - Parents input requested. [Re: phill] #125426
12/04/07 12:27 AM
12/04/07 12:27 AM
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16nut Offline
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I vote for #5 lets use what we have without creating yet another sailboat for kids. There is the Opti, Open Bic, 29er, Wave, Bravo, Mystere 4.3, SL 16 (for bigger kids), H16, and on and on and on. Sorry guys but most parents are not going to buy this boat (I am sure there are a few parents on this forum and I mean a few that will buy it). Hay I was on the water last summer on my H16 and passed one of those Mystere 4.3, I thought that was going to be your big youth boat. Dart also came out with a great boat for kids, Hobie has the Hobie Dragoon, and there are more out there. You guys keep proliferating the market with more and more boats and you wonder why no certain class can establish its self. How about everyone that bought a Mystere 4.3, Bravo,s Waves, Dargoons, Darts, and so on are you going to sell your boats and buy yet another new design? I cant wait until next year to see what other new boat comes out for youth so I can yet again sell what I have and buy that boat, NOT! So I am a little confused, now why do we need yet another kid/youth boat? Sorry guys but you all seem to be a bit out of tough with current state of affair in the sailing world, and really really out of touch with reality, and in particular with what kids want. Oh I sure hope this boat of yours is going to be durable so when they run into a dock it will withstand the impact like a Hobie Wave.

I showed my kids your boat design and they said it looks cool but my twin sons said they will stick with the Open Bic, my daughter said no thanks she will stick with the Wave so she can take all your friends out. My sons love to do tacking wars and flip over and over and over. My daughter as she indicated loves to take as many friends out on the Wave as possible. Even though my kids love to race the social and fun factor of the boat is far more important than if it looks cool and is a little faster than another boat.

We just came back from a week long trip on Hobie Islands and now my kids all want Islands. Pedaled, paddled, and sailed there butts off and had the time of there life.

Still good luck with this project,

Re: Kids Cats - Parents input requested. [Re: 16nut] #125427
12/04/07 02:26 AM
12/04/07 02:26 AM
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Sydney Australia
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Re: Kids Cats - Parents input requested. [Re: Berny] #125428
12/04/07 03:22 AM
12/04/07 03:22 AM
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Switzerland
alutz Offline
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My vote goes for the N3.

In Switzerland we have very little winds and a cat without boards may not get well accepted. IMO, in lower winds the cat without boards will not go good enough against the wind.

All monohull dinghys have boards, so it can't be of a big problem. It helps the kiddies to right there cats too. Otherwise maybe a pivoting centerboards might be a solution too.


All the best and very cool looking design!

Last edited by alutz; 12/04/07 03:23 AM.

Andi, Switzerland
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