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Re: Kids Cats - Parents input requested. [Re: claus] #125449
12/04/07 01:31 PM
12/04/07 01:31 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
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Centerboards like the what the Tornado have would increase performance a bit, but why add boards when skegs work well enough? Do they add fun for the kids or make the boat an easier sell to the parents? Price would certainly increase.

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Re: Kids Cats - Parents input requested. [Re: Stewart] #125450
12/04/07 01:47 PM
12/04/07 01:47 PM

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Quote
no Waves here.. no M4.3s..

On the mono sides there are Pelicans, optis, mudlarks, JDs, Manlys, Flying Ants, Mirrors..

So where does that put cat sailing?
Ok we can side with Hobie.. If Hobie will allow me to build my own boat for my son and allow me to get someone to make my sails and parts as required.. Building plans are found where and how much?


Well put.

And btw, Flying Ants are very cool - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E52RGCBiqaE

Re: Kids Cats - Parents input requested. [Re: phill] #125451
12/04/07 02:38 PM
12/04/07 02:38 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 215
Ohio
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Ohio
As a M4.3 owner, if truely a boat for 10-12 yr olds, I would want to see significantly lighter, less parts and something that a kid or two can set up by themselves. Forget about performance in favor of easier setup/tear down by the kids.

So, I vote for number 2 (deep rudder, skeg hull). Definitely would not want to see boards. Would love an un-stayed rig. A two piece mast for trailering. Like the idea of the tiller in front of the mainsheet. If there is some way to make the hulls quick-disconnect from the beams, it would be a plus for storage, car top and trailer options.

Would I buy one? Already have the M4.3 and a fleet in Ohio so probably not. But you really can't get a new M4.3 so for new entry it would be nice to have something to direct them to.

P.S. Parent of 4, 11 and 15 yr old.

Last edited by TeamTeets; 12/04/07 08:05 PM.

Mike, Ohio
Former H16, H18, N20, N17, M4.3
Re: Kids Cats - Parents input requested. [Re: David Parker] #125452
12/04/07 02:49 PM
12/04/07 02:49 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 695
Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
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Option # 2 would seem to give the best balance of performance Vs complexity and cost.
No kid likes to look like a fool in front of their friends because they don’t catch on quickly. The more complicated the entry level cat is, the more chance of alienating a large portion of the group who come from a non sailing background, and who’s parents are non sailors.

My experience with teaching kids to sail is limited to my son's high school sailing team (20 +- team members pretty equal mix of boys and girls). We practiced at, and had a professional sailing coach from US sailing (Jensen Beach Fl). The boats sailed were 420’s; at one point I believe we had something like 9 boats on the water at once. Working closely with the coach, I observed most liked sailing but only a very few liked "racing". Most did not want to helm the boat but would rather crew. Some would have rather sailed by themselves on a Laser if forced to "race" so they didn't have to contend with critical crew mates when they didn't win. Granted these were older kids, 14-17 years old. The top kid on the team came from optimists…the next two closest competitors had sailed sailboards.

What made the Team inviting is:

1) Professional (paid) Coach with notable credentials who directed all of our practices, on and off the water, and who had answers to all related sailing questions.

2) There was time for free sailing before the practices, but once the practices started it was very well structured and controlled. While we wanted everyone to have fun (and they did) the practice sessions were all about learning to sail, disruptive behavior was not tolerated. Parent Volunteers keep the peace so the coach could coach instead of being a babysitter, or disciplinarian.

3) A US Sailing facility that provided the Boats/Sails on a sandy beach on the inter coastal waterway with good conditions for learning at a reasonable monthly fee. US sailing provided Coach boat and one safety boat, marks and water edge storage. They even had a small barge to tow out so the kids would not have to set on the beach when crews were changed out at multi school races.

4) Very involved Parents, four fathers, including myself, were there every practice and ran the coach boat and safety power boat, often providing one other safety power boat so the coach could coach. He was able to direct the buoy set, and keep tabs on every sailor through us. We helped the kids rig the boats and made sure all safety proto-call was followed.

5) We had fundraisers at a local Yacht club, and on one occasion it yielded over $2,000 profit for a single Spaghetti Dinner that the kids held and the parents organized and participated in.

6) To expand the fleet several Fathers searched and found three used boats that they bought for the team and working on weekends refurbishing , patching hulls and re-rigging…with the kids helping and learning how to take care of, and repair their own boats.

7) The kids had a blast and so did the fathers that participated. It was not about the boats (although super easy tacking was their favorite thing they liked about them) it was about community.

The Blade 12 looks amazing and is sure to excite kids who “want to do what dad does”… But it will be community that makes or breaks all these awesome looking mini-cats.

Best Regards,
Bob

Re: Kids Cats - Parents input requested. [Re: Seeker] #125453
12/04/07 06:24 PM
12/04/07 06:24 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,383
Kingston SE South Australia
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Phil nice design. I've looked at the 3 versions each day and number 2 really appeals to me. Can you quantify the difference in performance with the skegs? Can the rudder lockdown be something like the A class pop out rods except extend all the way to lock in near the tiller crossbar? that would mean the kids don't have to go so far back. You've really designed a boat that can be built to suit each location and if you dont need it to fit between another cat, I presume your plans could include a bit more width.
In defense of new boats for kids this discussion has already helped the move from dinghys to cats and in our club Hobies are seen as snobby boats because we cant sail in their regattas. I was looking at a Hobie Tiger and was actively discouraged so I purchased the A class, if I tried to introduce a small hobie the price would be prohibitive and the reception distinctively cool.
regards


Jeff Southall
Current boats
Nacra 5.8 1703 Animal Scanning Services
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Arrow 1576
Re: Kids Cats - Parents input requested. [Re: Matt M] #125454
12/04/07 06:40 PM
12/04/07 06:40 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
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I like the single rudder and maybe single board idea, It may not be the right solution but it is something I would like to try.

It is much simpler, is familiar to a mono sailor and is cheaper.


Simple to use yes as there is only 1
Cheaper from a foil aspect also because there is only 1 of each as well.

Cheaper as a whole -No - as you have to create mounting and deployment fixtures on the cross bars which before were simply a plain round tube. This complicates the platform considerably both for use and the build.


You may be right. The central truss could become almost as complex as a third hull, especially if we see the boat as a trimaran with raised mainhull. The price of the central truss/hull could offset the savings - unless a simple and clever design is feasible. Like Gareth, I would like to know if this is the case (or not).

Why do you say the central hull complicates the use of the boat?


Luiz
Re: Kids Cats - Parents input requested. [Re: ] #125455
12/04/07 06:47 PM
12/04/07 06:47 PM
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Posts: 953
Western Australia
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Western Australia
yes they are.. Another great Spenser design.. Smart man Mr Spenser..

The JD is a similar style boat and lead in boat for I14s..
movement for kids would be mudlarks (6 foot single handed cat rig) 6-10? yr old the JDs to 16 then cherubs (12 foot big bro of Flying Ants) then Javelins or I14s

others go Pelicans/Manlys Flying Ants then up.. Cherubs/29ers/420

Re: Kids Cats - Parents input requested. [Re: TeamTeets] #125456
12/04/07 07:24 PM
12/04/07 07:24 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Quote
As a M4.3 owner, if truely a boat for 10-12 yr olds, I would want to see significantly lighter, less parts and something that a kid or two can set up by themselves. Forget about performance in favor of easier setup/tear down by the kids.

So, I vote for number 2 (deep rudder, skeg hull). Definitely would not want to see boards. Would love an un-stayed rig. A two piece mast for trailering. Like the idea of the tiller in front of the mainsheet. If there is some way to make the hulls quick-disconnect from the beams, it would be a plus for storage, car top and trailer options.

Would I buy one? Already have the M4.3 and a fleet in Ohio so probably not. But you really can't get a new M4.3 so for new entry it would be nice to have something to direct them to.


This is probably the best definition of the desired features for an entry cat!

The boat is for kids and must "catch" their spirit, but the parents are the ones who have to pay, transport, fix, rig and de-rig it - so we'd better listen to them.

In your opinon, can kids handle the rigging and de-rigging process with the proposed configuration (#2)? Do you have a simple method that could be used to train kids to raise the mast/sail by themselves?


Luiz
Re: Kids Cats - Parents input requested. [Re: Luiz] #125457
12/04/07 08:24 PM
12/04/07 08:24 PM
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Luiz,
There is a very simple hinge system used to raise and lower the mast.
It retracts inside the mast so it is not shown in the renderings.
There will also be a thick rope with knots in it between part way up the luff of the sail and ties around the striker post when up. It has the dual purpose of helping to raise and lower the mast and also help get back on the boat after it is righted.
You work your way up the knots in the rope as you step into the dolphin striker and then up onto the boat.
The idea is to at least keep the rudder stocks and tiller gear on the boat. The rudder blades can go into the stocks with a bolt with winged end . A rope with shocked chord in series would allow the rudders to go down and be kept down with a cam cleat on the tiller arm but if they hit the ground they will come up as the heavy shock cord stretches.
Alternatively a rod system could be used. But I would include a loop fixed above the tiller arm to retain the rod when not engaged in either up or down position.
Having been through the ordeal of having to rig 3 cats every time I wanted to sail led me to come up with very few parts and systems but what is there would be reasonabley easy for a child to assemble.

If need be the boat is very easy to de beam. It may be possible to socket the beams into the hulls and if I went this way, the method used would take a good 2 minutes to take apart. These things will be looked at more closely during prototyping.

The comments being made are very useful in helping me learn how people see things and this will help me as I move forward with the design.

I'd like to thank those who have commented so far.

Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: Kids Cats - Parents input requested. [Re: phill] #125458
12/09/07 09:20 AM
12/09/07 09:20 AM
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Posts: 1,449
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Folks,
Responses follow to some of the posts.

Luiz- My original drawings had a central C/B and central rudder. Both were discarded in the interest of simplicity.
It is the mounting of the c/b and rudder that makes them a more complex sollution.

Eric- In response to your specified requirements:-
the boat should be under 150lbs,
car topable and easy breakdown to make car topping even easier.
almost no fittings and with what is there staying on the boat not much could be lost.

TRi x Troll- The prototype will have 60sq ft of sail. Depending on peformance relative to the intended use it may be increased.

Berny- 3 options would be on the cards for a home builder.

Alutz- If the performance is ok would skegs be accepted?

Hans- monkey proof- good point.

Stewart- agreed the main sheet needs to be inside something so it doesn't catch little necks..

Claus- I also considered the Tornado type c/bs- but as i have built a Cobra which uses them I decided against them
as they involved more work and are also heavier not to mention increased production cost.

The way I count the votes:-
Option 1 and 3 have 4 votes each ,
Option 2 has 14 votes and is a clear winner.

A good thing about option 2 is that it would be easy to change the rudders and you have option 1
or via/versa. The spade rudders a very cheap and dead easy to make.

I would like to thank all the parents that commented.
Your feedback is valuable in helping establish what is both desired and required.


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: Kids Cats - Parents input requested. [Re: phill] #125459
12/09/07 04:21 PM
12/09/07 04:21 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Luiz  Offline
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Quote


The way I count the votes:-

Option 1 and 3 have 4 votes each ,
Option 2 has 14 votes and is a clear winner.

A good thing about option 2 is that it would be easy to change the rudders and you have option 1 or vicea/versa. The spade rudders a very cheap and dead easy to make.



Also, external pivoting boards are easy to install in the boarless option, if needed.

It will be a cat with skeg and deep rudder, then. Make sure no monkey is hurt by the central reinforcement tube when tacking an jibing.


Luiz
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