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New(er) sails for old Tornado #126196
12/12/07 11:03 PM
12/12/07 11:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
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38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline OP
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Have a line on an older T for sale in our area. I don't recall what year (70's or 80's I think) but it has a tilt trailer, the price is right and we have a great mast up storage lot available where she could spend her years introducing folks to catamarans. Don't think we'd consider traveling to race it, purely a rec boat.

Seem to recall discussion that used T square tops are out there and available? Maybe used on the Mystere 6.0? Should I post on the T site?

Trying to find out what total cost to get her in usable, and fastest, condition. Obviously the pin head main will work but we'd like to toy with a square top.

Also the jib is toast, current owner says P19 jib will work.

Comments or leads appreciated


John H16, H14
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: New(er) sails for old Tornado [Re: _flatlander_] #126197
12/13/07 05:27 AM
12/13/07 05:27 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,383
Kingston SE South Australia
JeffS Offline
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JeffS  Offline
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Kingston SE South Australia
If you have the old tapered mast you may need to consider a newer mast to suit the square top sail. I'm far from an expert but have attatched the photo of the only Tornado I've ever owned. Wont describe what happened. If you were closer I'd have a stack of bits for you
regards

Attached Files
127652-Tornado.JPG (148 downloads)

Jeff Southall
Current boats
Nacra 5.8 1703 Animal Scanning Services
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Arrow 1576
Re: New(er) sails for old Tornado [Re: JeffS] #126198
12/13/07 05:52 AM
12/13/07 05:52 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
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West coast of Norway
It's a classic.. Looks like it ripped apart at the shroud fitting? Hope you either fill in with the story here, or make a new thread, even if you said you would not.

As long as you are not going to compete with the boat, any alu-mast squaretop will do, but beware of the loads. If you want max. performance, you need the luff curve adapted to your masts bending properties. The pros went with carbon masts during 2004/2005 so good used squareheads for alu masts are becoming more rare. Check on tornado.org and on the yahoo Tornado group. Good classic jibs are even more rare than alu squareheads. I would consider upgrading to the selftacking jib. Putting the new style working sails on the boat do wonders for it's handling, especially tacking. I would consider the boats structural integrity before putting a spi on it. If you can track down the brand, post a question on the TornadoCat yahoo group and there are good odds for quality answers.

Re: New(er) sails for old Tornado [Re: JeffS] #126199
12/13/07 08:12 AM
12/13/07 08:12 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
Quote
If you have the old tapered mast you may need to consider a newer mast to suit the square top sail. I'm far from an expert but have attatched the photo of the only Tornado I've ever owned. Wont describe what happened. If you were closer I'd have a stack of bits for you
regards


Ohhhh....you can't just drop that bombshell and not explain it. Looks like a trailering accident to me.


Jake Kohl
Re: New(er) sails for old Tornado [Re: Jake] #126200
12/13/07 08:29 AM
12/13/07 08:29 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
TEAMVMG Offline
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TEAMVMG  Offline
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uk
My money is on a big storm cartwheel because it was not tied down well enough.

it does remind me of the guy with a Hobie 18 that though he could tow it home with the mast still up! He hitched it up behind his Dodge Ram and went gunning off towards the overhead lines across the road. The result was both bows snapped off at the front beam [try doing that to a TheMightyHobie18] and no telephones in the neighbourhood for a while!

Paul


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: New(er) sails for old Tornado [Re: _flatlander_] #126201
12/13/07 08:39 AM
12/13/07 08:39 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 890
Dunedin Causeway, FL
David Parker Offline
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David Parker  Offline
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Dunedin Causeway, FL
Quote
Seem to recall discussion that used T square tops are out there and available? Maybe used on the Mystere 6.0? Should I post on the T site?


Dunedin Causeway folks have done a lot of used Tornado sails on Mysteres as well as GCats . We are blessed with Robbie Daniel in town and he often has used T sails, both old pinheads and newer squaretops. The Mystere mast is the same as the old Sailcraft Tornado extrusion and the Tornado sails work great on our boats. Here is a M6.0 and a M5.5. Note the 5.5 had the head recut to shorten about 12 inches. Write to Jill Nickerson for sail info at funinthesun(at)juno.com

[Linked Image]

Attached Files
Re: New(er) sails for old Tornado [Re: David Parker] #126202
12/13/07 09:09 AM
12/13/07 09:09 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline OP
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_flatlander_  Offline OP
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That's it! Thanks David

Rolf, thanks for the comments regarding tacking/handling, but we're looking for use as purely a reaching machine.


John H16, H14
Re: New(er) sails for old Tornado [Re: _flatlander_] #126203
12/13/07 09:17 AM
12/13/07 09:17 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
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West coast of Norway
Just note that there is a distinct difference between sails made for carbon masts and those made for alu masts.

Re: New(er) sails for old Tornado [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #126204
12/13/07 11:14 AM
12/13/07 11:14 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 890
Dunedin Causeway, FL
David Parker Offline
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David Parker  Offline
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Dunedin Causeway, FL
Quote
Just note that there is a distinct difference between sails made for carbon masts and those made for alu masts.


We were worried about that when we moved the Tornado squaretops to the aluminum Mystere masts. Whatever the "distinct difference" is, they seem to work great and the price is right, about $700 for a slightly used Ogletree Glaser (Italian) main. Poverty (and a sailing obsession) is the mother of invention.

Re: New(er) sails for old Tornado [Re: David Parker] #126205
12/13/07 11:21 AM
12/13/07 11:21 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline OP
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_flatlander_  Offline OP
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Poverty (and a sailing obsession) is the mother of invention.

That's what I'm always thinking and Rolf had me worried <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />


John H16, H14
Re: New(er) sails for old Tornado [Re: _flatlander_] #126206
12/13/07 11:43 AM
12/13/07 11:43 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
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This sail and craft also works very well for it's application.

[Linked Image]


Just trying to give good advice based on what I know from spending time and building sails in the Tornado class. US$700 is a lot better than the US$1800 a new one costs and if it works well, perfect..
If you want to check out what I am talking about, try laying a mainsail cut for an alu mast over one cut for a carbon mast. There should be less luff curve in the one for the carbon mast. When you hoist a sail with not enough luff curve, the sail becomes flatter than optimum.
A 70s boat will probably be set up for sideways mast bend instead of pre-bend. You will need to adjust your spreaders and inspect the tangs+spreaders for the increased loads.

Re: New(er) sails for old Tornado [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #126207
12/13/07 12:51 PM
12/13/07 12:51 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline OP
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_flatlander_  Offline OP
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Does anyone know at what point in time aluminum T masts may have changed to a modern, pre-bend, style of diamond spreader set-up? Any distinguishing visible differences? Like said, I not sure even the current owner knows exactly what vintage this boat is.

And now I'm confused by your statements on luff curve. We had an TheMightyHobie18 with the "sideways" bend mast. Honestly I never paid attention to that sail's luff curve. Conversely, the mast prebend and luff curve of the H20 is very prominent. Without dragging out my copy of "Cat sailing for the 90's", doesn't the sideways bend produce draft? Seems like a sail with less luff curve will work on the old school mast. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


John H16, H14
Re: New(er) sails for old Tornado [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #126208
12/13/07 12:57 PM
12/13/07 12:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 890
Dunedin Causeway, FL
David Parker Offline
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David Parker  Offline
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Dunedin Causeway, FL
Since nearly all the similar boats have switched over to the Tornado square top any misfit of the sail/mast combo is duplicated equally on each. Our own kind of Franken-cat one design! As long as we all screw up equally its a good plan. We are blissfully happy in our slow ways.

Remember, no matter how imperfect our rigs look we are still sailing in mid-December...water 71, air 80. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Join us for the Hangover Regatta on January 1st.

Re: New(er) sails for old Tornado [Re: _flatlander_] #126209
12/13/07 01:00 PM
12/13/07 01:00 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
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Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Almost any sail will work, the question is how well it will work. For reaching around, you can hoist pretty much anything and have a good time. If you want to go well to windward, it is a different case.
I would go and check out the boat for structural integrity of all parts. If it is OK, buy it and have fun with the sails on it. Then start looking for something better. An ad on Tornado.org and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tornadocat/ gives good odds on tracking down OK sails.

Re: New(er) sails for old Tornado [Re: _flatlander_] #126210
12/13/07 02:22 PM
12/13/07 02:22 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 146
Crofton, MD
Todd Berget Offline
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Todd Berget  Offline
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Crofton, MD
I believe the change occurred around 1988. I've also heard that the older standard Sailcraft masts could handle the loads of prebending.


Todd Nacra 20 www.wrcra.org
Re: New(er) sails for old Tornado [Re: Todd Berget] #126211
12/13/07 03:09 PM
12/13/07 03:09 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 26
Petaluma, CA
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David_Melcon Offline
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David_Melcon  Offline
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Petaluma, CA
My 1978 SCOC "D" section mast was converted to pre-bend in the mid 80's and has never experienced any problems. The original IYE "110" masts used on Tornados had a short cord and no raked spreaders. These masts tended to invert downwind and probably would not handle the diamond/downhaul loads of the prebendrig. My recollection is that the prebend rig established its superiority at the 1983 Tornado worlds and was the dominant rig at the LA Olympics in 1984.

David Melcon US 645

Re: New(er) sails for old Tornado [Re: David_Melcon] #126212
12/14/07 10:09 AM
12/14/07 10:09 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline OP
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_flatlander_  Offline OP
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Quote
The original IYE "110" masts used on Tornados had a short cord and no raked spreaders.
Is this an IYE "110" mast?
http://www.catsailor.com/bb_files/127652-Tornado.JPG


John H16, H14
Re: New(er) sails for old Tornado [Re: _flatlander_] #126213
12/14/07 12:36 PM
12/14/07 12:36 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
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West coast of Norway
It dont look quite like the IYE mast I have, a 1980 model. Perhaps an earlier model? Our mast have a IYE sign riveted to the front of the mast. Aft beam looks very IYE! Halyard hook is different as is the mastfoot. Spreaders looks like they are set up for pre-bend? We drove with pre-bend on our IYE section for some time and was happy with it.
It is easy to spot a pre-bend setup. Spreaders are raked well aft of the sailtrack.

Prebend was invente before my time in the class, but I also believe it was in place for the 84 games.

Re: New(er) sails for old Tornado [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #126214
12/14/07 12:52 PM
12/14/07 12:52 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline OP
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Quote
Spreaders looks like they are set up for pre-bend?
How much bend can you acheive with the diamonds attached to the side of the mast and not the front?
I'm guessing not much?


John H16, H14
Re: New(er) sails for old Tornado [Re: _flatlander_] #126215
12/14/07 01:02 PM
12/14/07 01:02 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 26
Petaluma, CA
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David_Melcon Offline
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Petaluma, CA
The fore/aft chord on all later masts were close to the class max of 135mm=5.31 inches. The IYE 110 masts had a for/aft chord of ll0mm. To my uncalibrated eye it looks to be a later section that should accept prebend loads without problem. If the spreaders are adjustable raking them back more will induce more prebend with less tension on the diamonds. The prebend needed is dependent on crew weight and luff curve. My current spreader rake is ~32mm=1.25", but when I sailed with my wife we used 50mm=2"

David Melcon

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