Hi Tony
Both Dave T and myself sold our first Stealth's last year and purchased new. Dave's is now being raced at Mumbles and mine is enjoying a long deserved holiday in France!!

Does anybody have the number of F16 produced in europe last year, say compaired to FX-ones ?

Who is saying the F104 are selling in large numbers ? Or FX-ones or I-17's or whatever the next scare is.

I think we have a touch of "grass is greener on other side of fence" here guys.

All classes from F16 to FX-one are dealing with the same situation. Catsailing is not as hot as it used to be 25 years ago.

None of the other classes is doing better then the F16's in absolute numbers and also not in world coverage. So why are we getting nervous all the time ? The other classes have got to crack some tough nuts before they can match the F16's over a broad front, currently they can't. That means that we have the advantage at this time and if we just play our cards well then we'll keep that advantage in the future.

We simply have to let go of any desires/expectations that quick growth is at all possible in todays markets.

Wouter

I can't quite agree with that (especially being in the UK).

If you had wanted light, high performance single hander with a Spi and with the option to sail two-up with jib and second trapeze, or a formula design single-hander, then I'd agree... That's the strength of the F16.

Whilst Bob was being a bit cheeky, he does have a point..

The volume manufacturers are more likley to support 104 over F16 given the current rules of each class.

No problem for F16, unless the class growth plans/desires are such that the small builder approach won't suffice.

Two points :

What do you mean by "... more likely ..." ?

Are they still "Uhhmm and Ahhh"-ing about that option as well; is "more likely" the same as "likely" ?


And what do you mean by "... given the current rules of each class. " ?

As the F104's don't have any class rules yet, were we do.


Wouter

the rules for 104 are simple: must rate 104! easy <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It is much easier for a volume manufacturer to build a boat that rates 104 than it is to build a F16. So therefore it is more likley. (a more attractive option)

And the big boys are not afraid of an arms race in the F104 in the way you say they are in the F16 class ?

Put some lead on an A-cat and voila it is a F104 !



But I also would like you to ask the following and make use of your expertise when it comes down to matters related to big builders. This is a serious question as I really like to know this.

In all honesty, how likely do you feel it is that the big builders will abbandon their FX-one and Inter-17 one-design classes in favour or building and marketing a purpose build F104 ? Including updating it continiously to keep it competitive in this one-rule F104 class ?

Second question :
How likely is it that both (Nacra and Hobie) will get into the F104 together under the above conditions.


Wouter

I think everything that needed to be said, and then some, about the 104, big builders and the F16 class have been said several times already the last month. It is the same persons returning with the same arguments yet again.

The original question was:


The question is not about the 104 or other classes.
For me the obvious answer is that having the marketing resources of Nacra or Hobie behind the F16 would be good.


[moderator hat on]
Macca,
With recent threads fresh in mind, I find it sensible for everyone to keep the temperature down on this topic.
[moderator hat off]

Both builders are activley building 104 boats an have recently optimised them for 104

The Hobie FX-Xtreme and the Nacra F17 (with new mast) are two recent examples of big manufacturers putting effort into 104.

Temperature is well down here <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (well as much as it can be in Sydney during summer!)

That Hobie Extreme is a "Proust Sailing" project and not officially santioned or supported by Hobie Europe or Hobie in general. The standard Hobie FX-one (both 1-up and 2-up) has a rating of 1.035 under SCHRS which is lower then 1.040. The FX-one is a foundation boat of the F104 class ?

The Nacra 17 (or F17 as nacra would have it) is a singlehander with a SCHRS rating of 1.005 which is alot lower then the 1.04 rating and therefor NOT F104 compliant.

The Nacra 17 sailed as a 2-up boat with jib still has a SCHRS rating of 1.022, which is again faster then 1.04 and also not F104 compliant.

The "new" nacra 17 as specified by Nacra Europe is a singlehander with a SCHRS rating of 1.028 which is lower then 1.040; even with the smaller 17 sq. mtr. spi its rating is 1.034, thus making both new versions non F104 compliant.

The 2-up version of this "new" Nacra 17 has a rating of 1.047 under SCHRS and is already to be considered less race competitive then the true 1.040 rated boats which are typically 1.035-1.040 designs rounded off to 1.040. The difference being almost a minute per hour racing.

If this is "actively building 104 boats" then I don't want to know how it looks like when they are slacking on the job !



So my conclusion is that :

-A- You show yourself that neither Hobie or Nacra is interested in letting go of their Inter-17 and FX-one designs. By extension, nothing we do as F16's class will ever interest them seriously in this direction.

-B- Neither boats are F104 compliant as they are now and we have to take your word for it that they will be in the future. We have yet to se the "new' nacra 17 for 2-up to be measured. We have to trust their website supplied specs.

-C- There is no coordinated effort of Nacra and Hobie to go F104. It is more a case of luck where the F104 class happens to be close to were the Nacra 17 and FX-one already were before anybody coined the idea of F104.

-D- Everything else appears to be just rumours, gossip and wishful thinking.


If so then I'm done with this thread hijack and propose that both Macca and myself go back to the main topic which is the F16 future as the F16 members see it.

Wouter

Excuse me but you are playing the Internet Muppet again. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Taking off my moderators hat.

You're not provoking, you're taunting. I don't care personally, but you annoy some folks and are in danger of being "shunned".

Please note that this is not the general forum. It is the F16 forum. We regulars have coalesced around the class. We believe in it and enjoy our boats and others who sail them. That alone is testament to the growing strength of the class; a sense of identity not dependant on the views of others.

It is my opinion that you are sailing a dinosaur and only your very excellent sailing skills make it look good.

Shall we put together a Formula Challenge? F boats only? The 17s and 18s have greater depth of experience and talent, you should win easily. Nevertheless, the F16 will win any number of admirers and converts. I don't think the other F boats will do either.

Time to put up, dude! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

To my understanding there is no such thing as the 104 class at the moment.

Just in france for some regattas the slow fleet is been renamed the 104 class.

It does not seem great to me to spend 12-15 euros to try and be the fastest in the slow fleet.

If I was there I would get a spitfire or a f18 for the racing.

Whoops I am in france and I got a f16 due to my back.





bye

Basicaly when we speak of the big builders we have Nacra and Hobie. They already have product that is at or very close to this. It is expensive to tool up for a new model, and even more so if you want light as not only the glass work needs tooled, but extrusions and likely new fittings.

The catamaran world is pretty small and building additional models fragments it even further. If I was either of these builders I would not consider making a true F16 from a business standpoint, but grasping concepts like a 104 would be interesting to promote what I already have.



A full blown spin boat wheter it is 16 or 18 feet is pretty close to the same cost. Fittings wise it is the same, labor wise it is the same, you just save a couple of sf of laminate in the hulls and a couple of square feet of sail material.I have lost count on how many changes the F17 has gone through, and the FX1 is following suit all to try and get some form of volume moving in those brands as they have never reached a volume mometum either despite the name and comapny backing both those models have. A heavy weight F16 or baby F18 if you want to call it that, serves no purpose in my opinion. The costs can not be enough lower to generate its own large scale market and it serves to to potentialy deplete the current F18 class by fragmenting the limited number of cat sailors out there.

The F16 rule as it applies now, does attract a somewhat different buyer with a noticably lower class weight and the versatility of the rules. The people who have them seem very loyal and it fits well with a number of buyers. I am in this becuase of the boat as it fits my needs perfectly. Whether the class lives up to or surpasses the F18 standard is yet to be seen. If there is ever a large enough growth, the big builders will tool up. I do not think that matters now, for what it is worth in my view.

Matt

What does that SL16 youth cat rate? Is that where the 104 thing came from? Does anyone really design and build a boat to a rating number instead of class rules?

Early on, I was challenged by experienced F18 sailors to race them boat for boat. I'm now ready to accept that challenge. I probably won't win, but the boat should do well enough to vindicate my decision to buy it, and provide a subjective comparison to those interested in formula boats generally.

So it is settled then.

We got very valuable support from the F16 builders we have now (and we're expecting to add a 4th builder soon) and the Big Boys will just have to join us or continue pottering about with their current models which we F16's have beaten in direct market competition already ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

That combined with the fact that every F16 owner is happy with the F16 class rules as they are now and doing his and her bit in F16 promo.

I see only clear skies ahead ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Wouter

Ohh God ! The SL16.

It was a step up from the H16 as the youth boat but apart from that it is pretty uninteresting.

It is actually rated slower then the H16 when that boat is without a spi kit ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

They should just have chosen the Nacra 500 as the new youth boat after fitting a spi to it and force nacra to allow licensed production of it by other builders.

It would have resulted in a better boat for the youth that is far more attractive to non-youth sailors as well; additionally it has a quite substantial second hand market available world wide (the older nacra 5.0 that can easily be converted)

Nacra actually has got an unrecognized winner in the Nacra 500 but they don't do much with it. It still amazes me why they entered the Nacra blast in the ISAF evaluation and not the Nacra 500 !

That little Nacra 500 is in my opinion one of the best small catamarans ever designed. And it is a @#%^# load cheaper then that overrated SL16 as well.

Now Nacra is supporting both One-Design classes that are really mutually exclusive. And now they are hung up as they can't drop either one at this time. The Nacra 500 is selling while the SL16 isn't, but the SL16 is the official youth class where the Nacra 500 isn't. Without Nacra in USA, only Sirena will remain as the SL16 producer which is not acceptable to ISAF under the terms stated for the youth boat.

I don't know who was responsible for this bit of business policy of Nacra over the last few years but he needs to go back to business school.

In my cold hard judgement, the best thing Nacra can do here it drop the SL16 like a hot potato, write off the associated costs and start campaigning hard with the Nacra 500. SL16 will die everywhere over night and only survive in France. Then in time it will just become the new youth boat anyway as their will not be an alternative other then the H16 with spi kit. Actually that Nacra 500 with spi is a much more capable competitor to the F16's then the Nacra 17 is or probably ever will be. That is at least how the potential customers I speak with are evaluating the situation.(Don't worry, we're working to close that gap)

Or at least that is my personal opinion.

Wouter