Like I said, when the thing wants to pitchpole go low or deep or whatever it is you wanna call it.
this applies to sitting at the back of the boat or on the wire, so what is your point?
When I said the bows dig in- I don't mean to the extent of pitchpoling. I mean that the bows dig in and the water rushes up to the main beam and you slow way down. That is why keeping the bows up is fast (aside from the obvious decreased risk of ppoling)
Last edited by PTP; 03/13/0807:58 PM.
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Re: Day two pictures can be seen here !
[Re: PTP]
#135467 03/13/0808:07 PM03/13/0808:07 PM
Like I said, when the thing wants to pitchpole go low or deep or whatever it is you wanna call it.
this applies to sitting at the back of the boat or on the wire, so what is your point?
When I said the bows dig in- I don't mean to the extent of pitchpoling. I mean that the bows dig in and the water rushes up to the main beam and you slow way down. That is why keeping the bows up is fast (aside from the obvious decreased risk of ppoling)
Awesome, during a race!(like Midwinters) I think I would just stop at that point and wait for the next race to start! Like I said, the guys with time on the tiller have already seen the gust coming and are prepared if not already turning down.
Tom
ps. Wasn't there a picture of an F16 going over with two F17's just behind, I'm betting they had already seen the gust and if not used the F16 that was about to pitchpole as a guide. In other words, those two F17's probably were able to really nail it from the cue they got by that boy going over. Nothing against the F16 guy, he just needs more time in those conditions.
Re: Day two pictures can be seen here !
[Re: Thomm225]
#135468 03/13/0808:12 PM03/13/0808:12 PM
I actually consider myself pretty good at feeling the puff and driving downwind. Even if I do turn down, have both bows planted nicely prior to the puff, I still dig into the chop and I still SLOW down. If I am on the wire I go OVER the chop and this doesn't happen. Maybe that is just the way the blade is. An extra 125+lbs and another foot on the 17 might make the 17 not do this as much downwind. I am still a little lost as to what you are saying.
Re: Day two pictures can be seen here !
[Re: PTP]
#135469 03/13/0808:23 PM03/13/0808:23 PM
I'm a believer that in a buoy race getting back and sitting on the hull is best. Heat it up and carve S-turns to drive off the puffs.
Distance racing you can get on the wire if the conditions permit (ie sea state and gusts).
What I find in capsizing under spi (pitchpoling) is that I'm not aggressive enough heating it up ... keeping the apparent wind to the side of the boat. Thus going too slow keeps the apparent wind towards the aft ... and when you get a gust it tends to "trip" the boat back-to-front.
The challenge for me with heating-it-up is to not oversteer (ie rapidly drive off) in the gusts. This was witnessed by an F17 at PerfMidWinters ..."you F16 guys look squirrely under spi".
More time on the water will (hopefully) cure this problem for me. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
USA 777
Re: Day two pictures can be seen here !
[Re: tback]
#135470 03/13/0808:34 PM03/13/0808:34 PM
Tback thanks. I see your point about short races. If I were in the front of the pack I probably wouldn't trap out, but if it were a "what do I have to lose" scenario then I would. I find that it is a lot easier to drive downwind from the wire. Easier to see the spin/waves/feel the puffs. also easier to look at the leeward bow too. It does, however, take time to set yourself in correctly (most of the time I go over under spin solo is when I am going out on the trap) so you can certainly lose time there. In the end, it is a situation wherein a mark needs to be made in a GPS for C mark and then you can look at VMG directly to see whether one is truly faster than another. I am not going to be sailing my boat anytime soon so reminf me to do that in a couple months.
Last edited by PTP; 03/13/0808:35 PM.
Re: Day two pictures can be seen here !
[Re: fin.]
#135471 03/13/0809:21 PM03/13/0809:21 PM
What happened to that rule about keeping your main sheeted in tight when under spin? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Re: Day two pictures can be seen here !
[Re: David Parker]
#135472 03/13/0809:23 PM03/13/0809:23 PM
That blade would have pulled away from that F17 with the quickness if one of them were on the wire! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Re: Day two pictures can be seen here !
[Re: Thomm225]
#135473 03/13/0809:49 PM03/13/0809:49 PM
ps. Wasn't there a picture of an F16 going over with two F17's just behind, I'm betting they had already seen the gust and if not used the F16 that was about to pitchpole as a guide. In other words, those two F17's probably were able to really nail it from the cue they got by that boy going over. Nothing against the F16 guy, he just needs more time in those conditions.
They're running downwind, so the gust hit the F17's first
John H16, H14
Re: Day two pictures can be seen here !
[Re: David Parker]
#135474 03/14/0804:13 AM03/14/0804:13 AM
What happened to that rule about keeping your main sheeted in tight when under spin? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
It's easy to talk about someone else but, It looks as if both of them are just running downwind, like with old type spinnakers, not driving as fast as they could. Although if the wind is very strong I'd sometimes do that.
Dermot Catapult 265
Re: Day two pictures can be seen here !
[Re: Thomm225]
#135475 03/14/0804:36 AM03/14/0804:36 AM
I haven't sailed an F17 in almost two years, but don't you think if it was so fast the guys sailing them at Midwinters would have been doing it if it worked so well............??
No, as there are many other reasons to not trap downwind even if its VMG is actually better.
It also dependents alot on boat setup in my opinion and personal preference. I (Taipan F16) for example am much faster on the hull hiking then on the trapeze under spinnaker (when 1-up that is) but I'll believe without a shred of doubt that Gary (Aussie Blade F16) is much faster while trapped then sitting in.
Wouter
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
Re: Day two pictures can be seen here !
[Re: PTP]
#135476 03/14/0804:41 AM03/14/0804:41 AM
Mathematically speaking, when 1-up it is faster to trap. Control can be a problem when 1-up though. The F16's appear to be "footers". They like to be driven fast without too much emphasis on things like pointing high. Just pointing high enough is sufficient, the rest is speed. Upwind is no different as several of you (us) have found out.
For 2-up the same is true but the control is noticeably better here as well. Any 2-up crew who has not got the crew on the wire (in enough wind) under spi is not driving an F16 in the best way possible. However I do admit that it will take some training to be comfortable at it; mostly by the skipper as he need to have a very steady hand on the tiller. The speed increase makes the boat corner like a formula 1 race car.
By the way an alternative is to have the skipper trap out and have the crew with spi sheet sit against the rearbeam. I believe this setup was pioneered by John Casey and John Williams and it worked very well for them. It also makes the skipper eat his own nervousness on the tiller.
Having said all this I believe sitting against the mainbeam and hiking out when 1-up can work really well as well.
Wouter
Last edited by Wouter; 03/14/0804:46 AM.
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
Re: Day two pictures can be seen here !
[Re: Thomm225]
#135477 03/14/0804:54 AM03/14/0804:54 AM
The guys that have some time on the tiller don't usually let the bows dig in in the first place. They have already seen the puff coming and are ready to head low even before it arrives.....
Excellent point Thomm.
I too feel that many skippers wait for the guts to hit first and then try to salvage it.
I also am convinced that the only way to do it right is to already feather the boat a little bit before the gust hits. It is now a feeling with me and I don't really know how I do it anymore but I believe that I most steer by pressure on the rudder tiller arm (not tiller bar or tiller extension !). If the pressure on it increases then I lets the boat bare off a little on its own accord. Basically I resist this pressure slightly less. When the pressure decreases then I push a little hard against the tiller arm and head up.
If you press me for why that works I believe that I must reply something like this. Every gust has a lead in and a lead out. It needs to pick up speed I believe my boat setup translates this lead in (out) directly (=immediately) into pressure on the rudders before even the boat has time to heel or anything. The spinnaker is far out in front and so its leverage on the rudder is quite large ?
However, I'm also sure that I sense windspeed somehow on my ears or other parts of my body. But anyway I do it, I tend to sense the gust coming 1 or 2 seconds before it actually hits. By that time I have beared off by enough to take the hit without much heeling at all.
Wouter
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
Re: Day two pictures can be seen here !
[Re: PTP]
#135478 03/14/0805:07 AM03/14/0805:07 AM
From the prototype Blade F16 testing we learned that the Blade has a very sharp fall off point with respect to diving. But note that it actually has MORE dive resistance then say the Taipan.
The thing a Blade sailor might trip over is the sense that everything is just fine all the way up the threshold, so they implicetly feel that they have ample margin left when in reality they don't. My own boat for example will by that time have already gone to a nose down attitude that can not be considered a dive yet, but that does act as a warning ! So I back off a little when a Blade sailing might hold his position or load it up even more.
Blade sailors must develop a sense where they know they have neared the threshold and keep it there or back off a little.
From a racing point of few, that Blade behaviour is actually preferable as one can now push the boat in proper attitude all the way to the dive threshold (that any design will have somewhere), were guys like myself will have to back-off earlier because bow down attitude is slow. The pay back of course is that a Blade sailor needs to develop a more refined skill to tell when he is nearing that threshold.
I found the FX-one to have much the same behaviour, reports say the Capricorn does so too; I believe it comes with the new hullshapes that concentrates most of the volume on the keel line and thus have little additional bouyancy when you have pushed it far enough to overpower this keel line bouyancy. The nacra 17 hulls are based on an entirely different concept. They actually have alot of reserved bouyancy and relatively narrow keel lines. This is also the cause of other differences I believe; like the very accute steering on the F16's and the preference to be footed rather then pointed.
One trick for newbies is to actually go about it the other way around. Instead of getting out more (trapping to the rear) one can go in more and thus force the boat to heel before it passes the threshold. Then you steer to avoid heeling and at the same time avoid passing the dive threshold. It will be slower overall but you don't capsize too easily. Of course the first rule to winning a race is to not capsize.
Wouter
Last edited by Wouter; 03/14/0805:11 AM.
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
Re: Day two pictures can be seen here !
[Re: tback]
#135479 03/14/0805:17 AM03/14/0805:17 AM
What I find in capsizing under spi (pitchpoling) is that I'm not aggressive enough heating it up ...
Funny, you say that. When asked I always reply that a (F16) skipper should already be bearing off BEFORE the gust hits and heading up again BEFORE the gust ends. You have to be 1 or 2 seconds ahead in time; but still be smooth about it (S-curves).
So yes "agressive" as in be quick to start your action but not in the way you execute it.
I also believe F16's are much like landyachts in this respect. Pressure and speed are everything. Losing either can get you into trouble. Having speed can get you out of it. How, well try this once. When you have ample speed under spi, lift your lift hull gentle and then bare off hard while still having alot of boat speed. What happens then ? On my boat the bows stay out but the luff hull slams down. I think that I'm using that momentum to surpress the hull during the onslaught of a gust and then have my new lower course handle the main body of the gust. I then use the opposite momentum to head-up in the gust when it is starting to wind down and have my new higher course handle the lull. I find that if you can perfect this then you can drive the boat hard, fast and deep. Currently I can personally only do that when sitting or hiking out. On landyachts you actually use this cornering (centrifugal force) to keep your car from tipping over. I do that relatively often so maybe I learned it there. Come to think of it, I first learned in on the 49-er skiff as you absolutely need that trick there (even upwind) or be over all the time.
So indeed, as you say, you got to hunt that apparent wind fully (aggressively ?).
Wouter
Last edited by Wouter; 03/14/0805:23 AM.
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
Re: Day two pictures can be seen here !
[Re: Wouter]
#135480 03/14/0805:30 AM03/14/0805:30 AM
This is the zen of downwind sailing under spi <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Go out there, close your eyes, and keep that hull flying at an even height. After a while, you dont need to think about it, you "feel" the force in the gusts. Then you can get your head out of the boat. Ref: the 'jib sliver' thread. Feel the force, submit to the force and use the force, to paraphrase a bit <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Re: Day two pictures can be seen here !
[Re: _flatlander_]
#135481 03/14/0805:31 AM03/14/0805:31 AM
They're running downwind, so the gust hit the F17's first
Ahhh, not necesserily !
There are exceptions !
Apparent wind boat guys ?
If they are driving faster then the windspeed then the leading boat overtake the gust first.
Also a gust doesn't have to be equal of the full front of the wind. Gusts are macro turbulance if they are violant. Full front gusts are typically more gentle in the upswing and downswing. The leading boats can have been on the edge of such a spiral/vortex with the others being in the calm centre or further on the outside.
Also gusts can be caused by tall objects locally increasing windspeed that is stationary in speed relative to its location but will appear like a gust to an object moving into its path. Tall buildings and even the edges of the windmill park will cause such effects.
Thermodynamic laws of nature make wind flow AROUND objects more then flow OVER them, just like water would in a stream. At my formerly club we had a modest depression in the dunes on shore, not even that much, maybe 20 mtr and there would always be a wind channel right in front of it.
In the picture they appear to be close to shore with relatively tall buildings. Could it be that the front boats just sailed into a wind channel without preparing for it ?
Wouter
Last edited by Wouter; 03/14/0805:40 AM.
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
Re: Day two pictures can be seen here !
[Re: Rolf_Nilsen]
#135482 03/14/0805:37 AM03/14/0805:37 AM
Sometimes I do catch myself staring at the leeward hull sidestay putting for long periods of time when under spinnaker. I always reprimant myself for it because you also have to look out for other boats and changing conditions around you, but still ...
It is exactly one of the best times for me on the F16. Boat being an extension of the arm etc.
The only thing to be careful about is the possibility of having two gust superimposed on eachother with the first arrive just ahead of the second. I sense the curvature of the first and steer to it but often fail to sense the second. It is most hard when the second hits on the downturn of the first without the first having completed its downslope. I'm heading up at that time riding the downslope when you actual want to stay low or bear off more for the second gust coming.
But I'm getting better at that as well !
Indeed, it feels alot like Zen meditation ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Feel the wind Grasshopper !
Wouter
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
Re: Day two pictures can be seen here !
[Re: Wouter]
#135483 03/14/0806:14 AM03/14/0806:14 AM
Something I missed in Wouter's post was the effect caused by waves/chop. In flat water flying a hull under spin at a constant angle is pretty easy but with waves and bad chop it is a different story, even harder to do when the wind is up. I haven't sailed an F16 but imagine that with its short waterline you either have to get the weight back as far as humanly possible (get a chicken wire for that), or keep both hulls in the water for most of the time.
Re: Day two pictures can be seen here !
[Re: Tony_F18]
#135484 03/14/0806:31 AM03/14/0806:31 AM
I haven't sailed an F16 but imagine that with its short waterline you either have to get the weight back as far as humanly possible (get a chicken wire for that), or keep both hulls in the water for most of the time.
Waves have a ritme to them as well, just like the gusts. You steer S-curves to handle the wind and another set of S-curves for the waves. These two as superimposed on eachother.
I do typically sit far back on the boat, against the rearbeam, but I never have two hulls in the water unless light winds force me to.
I don't use a chicken line and I don't have a footstrap. I sit on the luff hull and hike out using the footbands on the trampoline. In that position I can throw the tiller extension behind the boat and just lay my hand on the rudder tiller extension and steer by pressure it excerts on the palm of my hand. When need be I can let go of the tiller and use two hands for sheeting the spi or adjusting the mainsail.
Basically the same as you can see Terry back do here only difference is that Terry is holding onto the tiller bar where I (again) only lay my hand on the tiller arm that is part of the rudder stock itself and often hang my body out over the side.
Wouter
Last edited by Wouter; 03/14/0806:33 AM.
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
Re: Day two pictures can be seen here !
[Re: Tony_F18]
#135485 03/14/0806:34 AM03/14/0806:34 AM
I sure wish you guys wouldn't analyze so much. You try to drive the boat downwind like you do upwind in a matter of speaking. Don't turn down BEFORE, but during or AS the puff is hitting for MAX speed. Just like you either head into a puff upwind or ease the sheet(if necessary) for a smooth ride. Same downwind, definitely ease the spin sheet if you can't stir through it. Another point on trapping out, what do you think is going to happen if while trapping out singlehand you stuff the bows(during a buoy race)?? You are going to be flying on the trapeze to the front of the boat and then you will be entering the water with the mast coming down on your head.
Once you guys start driving those F16's one up properly, I'm thinking you are going to go ballistic downwind especially in smooth water.