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Re: you're making assumptions.... [Re: ncik] #160363
11/13/08 06:52 PM
11/13/08 06:52 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 201
Adelaide, South Australia
simonp Offline
enthusiast
simonp  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 201
Adelaide, South Australia
I just bought a new harness and life jacket because i wanted to avoid all the extra buckles. I wasn't thinking safety at the time, just how annoying it is when you are dashing for the other side during a tack and the harness buckle gets caught on the trap wire or mainsheet, or something else. I can now see it is a safety issue to. The new stuff is way more comfortable too.


Simon
BLADE F16 AUS405
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: you're making assumptions.... [Re: tami] #160600
11/17/08 12:25 PM
11/17/08 12:25 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline OP
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Tornado  Offline OP
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Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC
Tami,

I agree the article doesn't say explicitly the hook was caught, but it does say:

"PJ was wearing a currently legal harness with no "Quick Release" buckle. In 2006 ISAF tried to make Quick-Release buckles mandatory, but was repealed. Ryan dove many times to untie half hitches to free PJ."

The implication is it was an issue...why bring up harnesses in such detail if this was not an issue?

Please hop aboard the safety parade.



Originally Posted by tami
Sorry to rain on your safety parade,

but nowhere in the SA article does it specifically state that the guy's buckle was fouled.

All it says is that he was wearing a harness without a quick-release buckle.



From the HONOLULU STAR-BULLETIN Thurs Nov 13 2008
http://www.starbulletin.com/news/20081112_..._team_hard.html

"When the boat Peter McGonigle Wenner was sailing in capsized Saturday afternoon, the 19-year-old became entangled in its canopy, trapping him underwater for about five minutes, authorities said...."



What's next? Do we outlaw CANOPIES? rigging? Arms and legs do get fouled in rigging, you know...


How about we learn to sail SAFER and TRAIN ourselves for these sorts of accidents rather than imposing regulation...?



Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: you're making assumptions.... [Re: ncik] #160602
11/17/08 12:29 PM
11/17/08 12:29 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline OP
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Tornado  Offline OP
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Vancouver, BC
So let me understand this...safer or quick-release harnesses give a false sense of security, thus you won't be getting one...but you're going to take measures to reduce risks from snagging. How is that any different from a safer harness?

Originally Posted by ncik
It could be argued that quick release harnesses and such give a false sense of safety, which in itself can be dangerous.

For this reason I will not be rushing out to get one, but I will be reviewing my, and my crews, apparel for items that can catch. Will probably incorporate the rash vest over the harness and all its damn buckles. Alternatively I will get the buckles removed and sew the harness leg straps into position.


Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: you're making assumptions.... [Re: Tornado] #160670
11/17/08 11:19 PM
11/17/08 11:19 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
W
warbird Offline
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warbird  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
Originally Posted by Tornado
Tami,

I agree the article doesn't say explicitly the hook was caught, but it does say:

"PJ was wearing a currently legal harness with no "Quick Release" buckle. In 2006 ISAF tried to make Quick-Release buckles mandatory, but was repealed. Ryan dove many times to untie half hitches to free PJ."

The implication is it was an issue...why bring up harnesses in such detail if this was not an issue?

Please hop aboard the safety parade.



Originally Posted by tami
Sorry to rain on your safety parade,

but nowhere in the SA article does it specifically state that the guy's buckle was fouled.

All it says is that he was wearing a harness without a quick-release buckle.



From the HONOLULU STAR-BULLETIN Thurs Nov 13 2008
http://www.starbulletin.com/news/20081112_..._team_hard.html

"When the boat Peter McGonigle Wenner was sailing in capsized Saturday afternoon, the 19-year-old became entangled in its canopy, trapping him underwater for about five minutes, authorities said...."



What's next? Do we outlaw CANOPIES? rigging? Arms and legs do get fouled in rigging, you know...


How about we learn to sail SAFER and TRAIN ourselves for these sorts of accidents rather than imposing regulation...?



Huge issue financially for those selling safety hooks which would all need to be replaced at high cost strait away so there is a while lot of reasons to ramp up the commentary.

Safety is a problem for us all as we are all too safe. Every time one person dies for any reason authorities want to over react. Only sensible place for the mitigation of the loss of human life is not to sail.
I was watching some old Indianapolis footage and people died and the boys just kept racing. We are all soft now and getting softer.
What is the step too far?
People make safety hooks, if you want one buy one, if you don't be prepared to die if you are the one unlucky dude this last year out of all of the sailors on the planet who might have died because he was hooked up.
I looked into the ball style and too many people wrote into this forum and said they just dropped off the side of the boat...I sail all alone out past the Islands here with no boats in sight. What do I do if I fall off the side of my boat when it is going 15 knots in a big sea?
Where is the balance for me of how many times I can get back to my boat and how many times I am going to hook up and be drowned?
It is awful that someone died but he died with the freedom to have the ball style harness.
Are there any stories out there about the hook Saving a life? One such story a year would balance the deaths.
I had an experience where my leg was caught up in my mainsheet. Do I 86 the mainsheet?


Re: you're making assumptions.... [Re: warbird] #160804
11/19/08 05:58 AM
11/19/08 05:58 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 74
Norway
S
Stein Offline
journeyman
Stein  Offline
journeyman
S

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 74
Norway
Ball-style harness:
"too many people wrote into this forum and said they just dropped off the side of the boat"
Those stories resulted from using the plastic spreader plate made by Hobie.
There are no breakage issues with the aluminium or carbon/Kevlar spreader plates.

The only disadvantage is that the trapeze wire ball does not disengage from the harness by itself, you have to push it. Some skiff sailors claim this slows their tacks by some milliseconds.

Stein


Re: you're making assumptions.... [Re: Tornado] #160819
11/19/08 09:18 AM
11/19/08 09:18 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 623
Gulf Coast
tami Offline
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tami  Offline
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Posts: 623
Gulf Coast
Originally Posted by Tornado

Please hop aboard the safety parade.


The article at SA's was written by Tempesta, who inserted his opinion about the harness. The news articles don't mention anything about harness, only 'canopy.' Which is exactly why I looked to the news, because I wondered whether there actually was a harness issue. At this point, I've not seen any evidence from the news media reports which indicate the harness hung up.


I'll quote my response on the subject from SA:

"Back in the 70's and 80's, when Hobie was ruling the world, and thousands upon thousands were sailing the overpowered H16 with their scary old laceup harnesses, did you see legislation come out about changing harness design? No... the MAST was legislated. Which is fucked up right there, but that's another argument.


We have enough outside involvement in our lives and a depressing trend towards absolution of individual responsibility. Get the kiss outta my business. DON'T tell me how to equip myself."

Last edited by tami; 11/19/08 09:22 AM.
Re: you're making assumptions.... [Re: tami] #160877
11/19/08 02:28 PM
11/19/08 02:28 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline OP
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Tornado  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC
Originally Posted by tami

Get the .... outta my business. DON'T tell me how to equip myself."



No one here has brought up legislating anything. Chill out.


Last edited by Tornado; 11/19/08 02:29 PM.

Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: you're making assumptions.... [Re: Tornado] #160885
11/19/08 03:57 PM
11/19/08 03:57 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
F
fin. Offline
Carpal Tunnel
fin.  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
I always thought you were humorless, now I'm sure. Have a nice life.

Last edited by Tikipete; 11/19/08 05:40 PM.
Re: you're making assumptions.... [Re: Tornado] #160894
11/19/08 04:26 PM
11/19/08 04:26 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 623
Gulf Coast
tami Offline
addict
tami  Offline
addict

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 623
Gulf Coast
Tornado,
Yes, you have indeed brought up legislating things... the SA article you quote is a chastisement of ISAF for not enforcing the quick-release rule. That rule would be legislation. No thanks, really, no more steenkin' rules.


Pete, as usual, you have nothing salient to say. Apparently you have no ability to make a real argument thus your need to degenerate to insults.

Re: you're making assumptions.... [Re: tami] #160901
11/19/08 05:14 PM
11/19/08 05:14 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline OP
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Tornado  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC
More details on the incident...apears it was the hook:

"Wild was on the recreational boat with Wenner the day of the accident, 1.5 miles off Waikiki Beach. The high-performance skiff, which capsizes easily if not moving forward, had already capsized five times that day. On the recreational boat were teammates, instructors all experienced sailors.
Wenner, wearing a harness, was standing off the edge of the boat. When the boat started to tip, he knelt down, and the harness hook got caught in the weblike netting that stretches between the hull and the outriggers of the boat, Wild said.
"Almost immediately someone from the chase boat jumped off and tried to save him," Wild said. Everybody already in the water dived down and "tried as hard as they could to free P.J."
It took a while before they figured out where the problem was.
"It was twisted so tight, we couldn't free that," he said. "We were all diving underneath," Wild said, but without goggles "we couldn't see how to free him."


Last edited by Tornado; 11/19/08 05:15 PM.

Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: you're making assumptions.... [Re: Tornado] #160951
11/19/08 10:31 PM
11/19/08 10:31 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 805
Gainesville, FL 32607 USA
dacarls Offline
old hand
dacarls  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 805
Gainesville, FL 32607 USA
I think it would be really hard to twist-up my aluminum ball harness plate in anything like mesh. The ball has never come out, if it was in the slot in the first place: 4 years racing in the ocean now on my A-cat.

Also- Wearing a long-sleeve rash-guard over the top of everything really helps to NOT stick the tiller extension thru your life jacket arm-hole or strap. I really hated it when that happened.


Dacarls:
A-class USA 196, USA 21, H18, H16
"Nothing that's any good works by itself. You got to make the damn thing work"- Thomas Edison
Re: you're making assumptions.... [Re: dacarls] #160954
11/20/08 12:10 AM
11/20/08 12:10 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 337
Arizona
AzCat Offline
enthusiast
AzCat  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 337
Arizona
I was dumped by my quick release last weekend in 28 mph winds. Crew took over and single handed the boat back to me. If he had gone over it would have been a long swim back to shore. I have since flipped the release to face down. Video is on youtube "Wet Kitty Catamaran". the release is just a few seconds after the video stops.

Condolences to the family.
we all hate to hear these things. take heed. No fear.


Auscat MKV 444 A class
NACRA I-20- 440/CATHATKA
Re: you're making assumptions.... [Re: AzCat] #160962
11/20/08 04:17 AM
11/20/08 04:17 AM

T
twicebitten
Unregistered
twicebitten
Unregistered
T



Condolences to the sailors family. Loss of life is a terrible thing.

But it happens less in sailing than many sports and just life in general. After all it's living that kills you.( If you don't live you can't die).

As far as trap hooks go, I rescued a cat sailor that was caught under the tramp on a wire strop that connected the Boom Vang. But it wasn't caught on the hook it was caught behind the plate that held the hook. Just can't fix every possible cause of entrapment.

Have fun and don't do anything that "you" are not comfortable with, that's as safe as you can get.

Re: you're making assumptions.... [Re: ] #161045
11/21/08 05:47 AM
11/21/08 05:47 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
W
warbird Offline
old hand
warbird  Offline
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W

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
I am pitching a sailing program for TV at present and have written a few sail quotes I created. I went back to them after reading this again and found these.


"Risk on the water must be mitigated with a rigorous attitude of crossing "t"s and dotting "i"s."

"Plan to be upside down and see right way up as a plus. Plan for rough, cold weather and see warm, calm as a plus. No matter who says the weather will be fine, do not believe them. Ever."

"I am happy with the risk that the sea presents to me because I know I have enough experience but more importantly enough forward planning to give me a good chance of survival if I have no chance of outside help."

" Rough weather is no time not to take risks. It is those very risks that keeps one safe and that is the beauty of it."

Sailing is a risk and I am all for it. That is not to say we should not take care.

Sail safe and sail fast..well I will because it is the season down here.

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