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by northsea junkie. 03/12/20 08:13 AM
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Re: n20 mast [Re: John Williams] #161576
11/27/08 11:21 PM
11/27/08 11:21 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
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Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
TeamChums Offline
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I thought it was already one design. Do you mean now it's "one manufacturer"?


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
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Re: n20 mast [Re: TeamChums] #161581
11/28/08 04:03 AM
11/28/08 04:03 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
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Originally Posted by TeamChums
I thought it was already one design. Do you mean now it's "one manufacturer"?


Yawn; T was NEVER one design until now.


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: n20 mast [Re: scooby_simon] #161582
11/28/08 04:16 AM
11/28/08 04:16 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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You could design Tornado hulls with a tolerance of 10mm here and there. Enough to make things interesting. Lots of things not regulated too strictly in the class rules and thus open to development. Now it goes one design, but I dont think it is finalized exactly how strict one design it is going to be.

Re: n20 mast [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #161586
11/28/08 04:48 AM
11/28/08 04:48 AM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 266
UK
Cheshirecatman Offline
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UK
I think it was the T used(?) to have a measurement tolerance of 1" in section at each hull measurement station.

Cheshirecatman

Re: n20 mast [Re: Timbo] #161587
11/28/08 06:29 AM
11/28/08 06:29 AM
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Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

I know an A cat mast weighs about half of what the alum. F16 mast weighs (19lbs. vs 36lbs. or there abouts)


Yes, but A-cat mast won't hold up F16 use (2-trap, spi, etc)

The lightest F16 carbon masts (without corrector weights) are about 26 lbs or roughtly 75% of an alu F16 wingmast. Note that such a carbon F16 mast requires corrector weights to be F16 compliant ! A compliant F16 carbon mast is about 28 lbs (80%)

The F16 carbon masts so far have proven to hold up under general abuse. I think since 2002 two carbon masts have been broken, one because the diamond wire snapped.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: n20 mast [Re: Wouter] #161588
11/28/08 07:10 AM
11/28/08 07:10 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 285
C
Catfan Offline
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A standard BIMARE 18HT section should be fairly good for the N20 (it is considered too stiff by a large majority of 18HT owners).
It scales up at just under 16 Kg or 35 lbs (its "heavy" weight is due to its "low" profile - 145 x 59 mm).
In Europe the complete mast retails at 3,300 EUR (USD 4,290)

Re: n20 mast [Re: Wouter] #161589
11/28/08 07:16 AM
11/28/08 07:16 AM
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Posts: 3,528
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scooby_simon Offline
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Originally Posted by Wouter


Quote

I know an A cat mast weighs about half of what the alum. F16 mast weighs (19lbs. vs 36lbs. or there abouts)


Yes, but A-cat mast won't hold up F16 use (2-trap, spi, etc)

The lightest F16 carbon masts (without corrector weights) are about 26 lbs or roughtly 75% of an alu F16 wingmast. Note that such a carbon F16 mast requires corrector weights to be F16 compliant ! A compliant F16 carbon mast is about 28 lbs (80%)

The F16 carbon masts so far have proven to hold up under general abuse. I think since 2002 two carbon masts have been broken, one because the diamond wire snapped.

Wouter


Wouter, is there a formula to calcualte the weight of a mast (lets make it a uniform tube) based on the tip weight; I can work out a rough approximation based un the summation of torques at points along the tube but that will not be accurate enough for some....


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: n20 mast [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #161595
11/28/08 12:37 PM
11/28/08 12:37 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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In Madrid, the T-class presented their new plan. All hulls will come from the same mould (nearly all already do), one mast has been chosen, one supplier of foils, one sailmaker with only one pattern, one supplier of hardware and all of it mounted in the same place on every boat. They're calling it "total one-design" to distinguish it from the previous one-design Tornado.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: n20 mast [Re: scooby_simon] #161602
11/28/08 09:27 PM
11/28/08 09:27 PM

S
Scarecrow
Unregistered
Scarecrow
Unregistered
S



Originally Posted by scooby_simon
[quote=Wouter]

Wouter, is there a formula to calcualte the weight of a mast (lets make it a uniform tube) based on the tip weight; I can work out a rough approximation based un the summation of torques at points along the tube but that will not be accurate enough for some....


I'm not Wouter, but the answer is no.

A tip weight of 10.5kg could either be an 11 kg mast (1 kg extrusion with a 10kg weight at end) or a 21kg mast with a constant weight throughout, or for that matter a 1T mast with most of the weight at the base.

Re: n20 mast [Re: Todd Berget] #161605
11/28/08 11:10 PM
11/28/08 11:10 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
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For the most part I'm fine with the aluminum mast. Most likely there will be more consistency from mast to mast, I'm guessing the weight is comparable. The one thing I'd question is the diamond adjuster block being made of brass (from the Infusion assembly guide). How long before the threads are toast? I'm assuming there's enough miles on the Infusion to validate it, but still...

Re: n20 mast [Re: ksurfer2] #161606
11/28/08 11:26 PM
11/28/08 11:26 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 185
Florida
JMAC Offline
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Florida
This thread went through a lot of side-bars, still waiting to hear exact weight difference and cost of new boat, from people "in the know" (i.e. Nacra Europe).

Re: n20 mast [Re: JMAC] #161607
11/28/08 11:38 PM
11/28/08 11:38 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,490
On the Water
P.M. Offline
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Originally Posted by JMAC
This thread went through a lot of side-bars, still waiting to hear exact weight difference and cost of new boat, from people "in the know" (i.e. Nacra Europe).

I'm with you John, seems the price has been asked more than a few times, as well as WHO tested the new rig, etc. . .


Philip
USA #1006
Re: n20 mast [Re: P.M.] #161633
11/30/08 10:05 PM
11/30/08 10:05 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
T
ThunderMuffin Offline
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Quote
Most likely there will be more consistency from mast to mast, I'm guessing the weight is comparable.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this one of the reasons why the T went to a carbon stick? Wasn't it because some campaigns were ordering multiple alum sticks and picking which one worked for them since they all differred so greatly from one another?

Quote
This thread went through a lot of side-bars, still waiting to hear exact weight difference and cost of new boat, from people "in the know" (i.e. Nacra Europe).


and I second this statement.
(or third..whatever)

Re: n20 mast [Re: John Williams] #161637
12/01/08 02:57 AM
12/01/08 02:57 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,197
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
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Originally Posted by John Williams
In Madrid, the T-class presented their new plan. All hulls will come from the same mould (nearly all already do), one mast has been chosen, one supplier of foils, one sailmaker with only one pattern, one supplier of hardware and all of it mounted in the same place on every boat. They're calling it "total one-design" to distinguish it from the previous one-design Tornado.


So I'm curious on this decision...doesn't the class membership need to vote on such an important issue? We had to vote on previous, less important issues.

Decisions with class member consulation (unlike the I20 going to a new alu mast) has always been an important aspect of the T-class...to me any way.



Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: n20 mast [Re: Tornado] #161642
12/01/08 06:06 AM
12/01/08 06:06 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
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Originally Posted by Tornado
Originally Posted by John Williams
In Madrid, the T-class presented their new plan. All hulls will come from the same mould (nearly all already do), one mast has been chosen, one supplier of foils, one sailmaker with only one pattern, one supplier of hardware and all of it mounted in the same place on every boat. They're calling it "total one-design" to distinguish it from the previous one-design Tornado.


So I'm curious on this decision...doesn't the class membership need to vote on such an important issue? We had to vote on previous, less important issues.

Decisions with class member consulation (unlike the I20 going to a new alu mast) has always been an important aspect of the T-class...to me any way.



Maybe, there is to be a NEW class called the "one-design Tornado" which will be used by the rockstars for the ollies and campaigns. All current T's will remain "Tornado's".



F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: n20 mast [Re: scooby_simon] #161647
12/01/08 06:41 AM
12/01/08 06:41 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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West coast of Norway
I dont see how they can do such a thing and still qualify as an international ISAF class. Surely there will be a vote, and I think the changes will pass. If current tornado class members dont have this information, I think they should ask the ITA (I let my membership elapse when we sold the boat).

Undecided, you are partly right. The top teams went through a lot of masts to find the one suiting them bests. Dies for extrusion change over time and together with other variables this was a big enough concern for top teams to spend funds on. What caused the definitive change over to carbon masts was when some teams began developing special profiles and alloys which others could not buy on the market.

Re: n20 mast [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #161654
12/01/08 11:20 AM
12/01/08 11:20 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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So if I snap an aluminum mast (any type of boat), do I get any credit toward the purchase of a replacement if I send back the broken parts?

Or should I just drop them off at my local metal salvage station and get the $ per kg credit...?

What's the current cost of aluminum?

And what do I do with a broken carbon mast (presuming it can't be repaired)? Grind it up and use it as landscape mulch?


Jay

Re: n20 mast [Re: waterbug_wpb] #161657
12/01/08 12:05 PM
12/01/08 12:05 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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West coast of Norway
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb


And what do I do with a broken carbon mast (presuming it can't be repaired)? Grind it up and use it as landscape mulch?


You cry for a while, try to mount the parts over the fireplace at home only to cry some more when your wife makes you throw your creative work in the bin.
Seriously, they can often be repaired. If not, put them in storage or donate them to a project.

Re: n20 mast [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #161659
12/01/08 12:08 PM
12/01/08 12:08 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 144
Near SLC, Utah
tomthouse Offline
member
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Near SLC, Utah
Where did the carbon mast break?

Is there enough left so it might be cut down for use on a different boat?

Re: n20 mast [Re: tomthouse] #161661
12/01/08 12:29 PM
12/01/08 12:29 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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Sell it to a big boat campaign as a carbon boom.

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