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Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: tami] #181159
06/05/09 10:03 PM
06/05/09 10:03 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 917
Issaquah, WA, USA
H17cat Offline
old hand
H17cat  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 917
Issaquah, WA, USA
Originally Posted by tami
Your group is unique in the country. And, as I have said previously, well led, by dedicated active folks. Y'all have made your dedication multi-generational.

Therein lies your success. INVOLVEMENT.


Tami, we share a similar experience in Div.4 as Fleet 204. You are right,it is the people. Multiple fleets can still coexist. At a recent Regatta we saw the resurgence of the H-14 Fleet. The Tiger fleet is probably our fastest growing fleet. Some have shifted from the H-18, Others have rejoined Hobie racing from the big boats. Second and third generations share positions on all the boats; Waves, H-14's, H-16's, H-18's and Tigers. Even our H-17 Fleet is growing with some new younger sailors.

It is the people, not the boat. Very few are racing new boats. Most of our racers have family affordable experienced boats.

Caleb Tarleton
Fleet 95, Div 4

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: mmiller] #181160
06/05/09 10:09 PM
06/05/09 10:09 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 602
Wilmington,NC
Dlennard Offline
addict
Dlennard  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 602
Wilmington,NC
The main reason I left Hobie is they don't make a boat that fit my needs. I had a 16 and 18 but when I got older and gained weight I could not compete with the lighter crews. The F18 class offers different sails and adding weight to equal the boats. The A cat offer different sails and mast to equal boats. Hobie really just supports the H16 now since they don't make the 14,17,18,20 any more.

I guess I don't understand what OD racing is that HC talks about. I thought it was the same boats racing together like H16, H17, N20, F18, Acat. I don't understand why they have to have there own regatta with HC only to sail OD. The A cats, F18, N20, M24, Laser, sunfish, shark all sail at the same regatta and are OD. Look at last years Spring Fever results http://www.twinhulls.com/springfever2009/09results1/ there was only one open class for a few odd boats all others had there OD class. Why does HC not promote the H16 and have a east coast championship at that event it would cost them nothing and may bring more boats to there class.

I think it is great you compare Hobie to Harley. I just picture mostly over weight women in little clothes with lots of skin art smoking and being drunk oh and mud wrestling. Guys with lots of leather, skin art really loud bikes. I think that fits great with the Hobie Cat way of life.

HCA might want to update the divisions and fleet list some of the ones I looked at were several years old. I would guess that most fleets listed do not fit the HCA bylaws by being active at least the ones in NC.

Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: mmiller] #181162
06/05/09 10:24 PM
06/05/09 10:24 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 454
Syracuse, NY Hobie Fleet 204
T
Tom Korz Offline
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Tom Korz  Offline
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T

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 454
Syracuse, NY Hobie Fleet 204
sorry, but no matter how big the dude boat, we will still be racing, increasing participation, sp?, and having fun.

I LOVED MY DUDE BOATs, and I know a chick that sails dude boats better than most dudes(SPK). But I go back to what I said, It doesn't have to be the biggest, fastset, techie-est to make me wanna race it. and I can't sell that type of boat to newbies.
(read as tryin to bring new sailors in)

Sail on

T

Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: Tom Korz] #181163
06/05/09 10:31 PM
06/05/09 10:31 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 454
Syracuse, NY Hobie Fleet 204
T
Tom Korz Offline
addict
Tom Korz  Offline
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T

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 454
Syracuse, NY Hobie Fleet 204
Dave,

I have been for HCA or whatever it is to scrub Tiger 1 design and make the starts F18. Almost had it in the early 2000's but was sabotaged by a "big" guy. Crikkie we had Skiddie & J young on the same chase boat.

ah well.....the good ole days

I could of had another 10-15 boats at Madcatter if we embraced F18...





Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: Dlennard] #181165
06/05/09 10:57 PM
06/05/09 10:57 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 917
Issaquah, WA, USA
H17cat Offline
old hand
H17cat  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 917
Issaquah, WA, USA
Originally Posted by Dlennard
HCA might want to update the divisions and fleet list some of the ones I looked at were several years old. I would guess that most fleets listed do not fit the HCA bylaws by being active at least the ones in NC.


Dave, here is ours at Division 4. http://www.div4.hobieclass.com/

Note stories, reports, pictures, and links to each Fleet, and class.

Caleb Tarleton

Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: Dlennard] #181168
06/06/09 12:31 AM
06/06/09 12:31 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
veteran
mmiller  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
Originally Posted by Dlennard
I think it is great you compare Hobie to Harley. I just picture mostly over weight women in little clothes with lots of skin art smoking and being drunk oh and mud wrestling. Guys with lots of leather, skin art really loud bikes. I think that fits great with the Hobie Cat way of life.


You don't know Harley... or Hobie.

[Linked Image]


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: Tom Korz] #181171
06/06/09 04:10 AM
06/06/09 04:10 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


Dude boats ?

Good thing we did the F16 class then !

The best of all worlds and growing all over !

Wouter



Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: mmiller] #181177
06/06/09 07:12 AM
06/06/09 07:12 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 623
Gulf Coast
tami Offline
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tami  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 623
Gulf Coast
No need for overpriced brand-labeled clothing and 'pseudo-bonding' marketing when your product speaks for itself.

Last edited by RickWhite; 06/07/09 06:17 AM.
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: Dlennard] #181181
06/06/09 08:53 AM
06/06/09 08:53 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
veteran
Keith  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Originally Posted by Dlennard
The main reason I left Hobie is they don't make a boat that fit my needs. I had a 16 and 18 but when I got older and gained weight I could not compete with the lighter crews. The F18 class offers different sails and adding weight to equal the boats. The A cat offer different sails and mast to equal boats. Hobie really just supports the H16 now since they don't make the 14,17,18,20 any more.

I guess I don't understand what OD racing is that HC talks about. I thought it was the same boats racing together like H16, H17, N20, F18, Acat. I don't understand why they have to have there own regatta with HC only to sail OD. The A cats, F18, N20, M24, Laser, sunfish, shark all sail at the same regatta and are OD. Look at last years Spring Fever results http://www.twinhulls.com/springfever2009/09results1/ there was only one open class for a few odd boats all others had there OD class. Why does HC not promote the H16 and have a east coast championship at that event it would cost them nothing and may bring more boats to there class.

I think it is great you compare Hobie to Harley. I just picture mostly over weight women in little clothes with lots of skin art smoking and being drunk oh and mud wrestling. Guys with lots of leather, skin art really loud bikes. I think that fits great with the Hobie Cat way of life.

HCA might want to update the divisions and fleet list some of the ones I looked at were several years old. I would guess that most fleets listed do not fit the HCA bylaws by being active at least the ones in NC.


Bingo!

For our area, the open class is our lead-in. Grab whatever you can find and come on out and see what it is all about. Don't want to scare the pants of somebody by starting them in a N20 or A-Cat. But if you want to move to an OD boat you now have the choice of N20, A-Cat, and F-16. If those don't fit, start drumming up others and start to build a fleet within the regular open racing, or buy want and continue open class. I'm really happy that a 16 footer (F-16) seems to be the next class being built at WRSC out of the WRCRA scene. For awhile I thought the H-16 would be a great choice, but I've come to believe that the F-16 is the best choice. Why? It can be raced heads up either singlehand and uni or 2-up as sloop. The spin satisfies those of us that are just addicted to spinnakers (spins are not oversized). Multiple manufacturers (would love to see a Hobie F-16). Sail/race by yourself, sail/race with your kid, sail/race with your sig other. Swiss Army knife flexibility in a nice fast boat. But now I'd have to add another to the reasons - not having to deal with this crap.

I love the Hobies I have sailed/raced in the past (in the future I could see owning an 18 again as a beach buster), and I gladly welcome any boat to our Tuesday night action (bring on the AquaCats!). We're about promoting multihull sailing, and indoctrinating newbies into the dark side. They rarely go back. The exclusionary attitudes being displayed here are the last thing that will be helpful in that mission.

Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: tami] #181182
06/06/09 08:56 AM
06/06/09 08:56 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
veteran
mmiller  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
Originally Posted by tami
No need for overpriced brand-labeled clothing and 'pseudo-bonding' marketing when your product speaks for itself.


The point was... the camaraderie of like minded people.

Your example does fit the attitude of many catsailor posters in regard to Hobie classes though.


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: Mark Schneider] #181186
06/06/09 10:09 AM
06/06/09 10:09 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 125
Clinton, Mississippi
rattlenhum Offline
member
rattlenhum  Offline
member

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 125
Clinton, Mississippi
Just in case there are any people new to catamaran sailing or racing who are reading this thread....please ignore it. Don't let it turn you off from checking out your local catamaran scene or attending any regatta for which you are willing to meet the entry requirements.

The People: All of the people posting to this thread that I know personally are really cool people. I know that some are very passionate and have worked very hard for their particular interests, racing formats, clubs, associations, or whatever. I believe the catamaran sailing community is better off for all of their efforts (except for some of the impassioned offerings of this thread).

The Boats: I've been on a lot of different multihulls and had a great time on every one. Hell, I have a great time on my father-in-law's O'Day Daysailer when I visit him and my cat is 125 miles away!

The Races: It takes an incredible amount of effort to put on regattas, and I am thankful for them all, even the ones that I am unable or choose not to attend. I have been to a lot of regattas (HCA sanctioned and open, at fancy yacht clubs and at bars). I have felt welcomed and had a great time at every one. Others' experience may be different, but I do not think that mine is a coincidence. My personal preference is to race boat for boat with other boats of my class. In addition, I prefer buoy racing as opposed to distance racing. Will I do a class sanctioned buoy regatta within a reasonable travel distance....yes. Will I do a distance race in an open fleet on Portsmouth within a reasonable travel distance....absolutely. Each one has it's own challenges, pros, and cons. I believe that the majority of sailors who race in my area are of the same mindset. Most do not know exactly what's required for their boat to be class legal, and most have not taken the time to learn how the Portsmouth system works. They just want to go and have a good time with good people.

The Sport: This situation is complicated....I don't believe there are any simple answers. There are many issues that have lead to the decline of sailing/racing in general and catamaran sailing/racing in particular. I'm sure it's one factor, but I don't believe that the move toward non-Hobie sailing and open racing in my area of the Southeast significantly hurt Hobie racing. Conversely, barring direct schedule conflicts, I don't think that the addition of some Hobie only events would significantly hurt open racing. And if I'm wrong, so what? Thankfully, folks have the right to put on whatever type regatta they choose, and folks have the choice of whether or not to attend. It will either work or it will not, but I would wish them well and admire them for trying, rather than bashing them. I do not believe we'll ever understand exactly what caused the decline of this sport or create a perfect formula for building it back, but I do know one thing. This thread is not helping.


Jerome Vaughan
Hobie 16
Clinton, Mississippi
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: rattlenhum] #181191
06/06/09 11:15 AM
06/06/09 11:15 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Well, what we all need to do is chip in, along with the major cat manufacturers, to produce a half-hour infomercial that is all about sailing catamarans. And then offer a catamaran for $19.95 for a 60-day free trial period. If you are not completely satisfied, send it back for a complete refund. wink

Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: rattlenhum] #181250
06/07/09 11:33 AM
06/07/09 11:33 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 60
Ocean Springs, MS
Goclaw Offline
journeyman
Goclaw  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 60
Ocean Springs, MS
Jerome:

AMEN! I couldn't have said it any better myself.

Yesterday, I took out and sailed (for the first time) one of our club's newly acquired "vintage" H16's. Here are my observations versus my Nacra 20. The boat is slower, likes to hobby horse (or is that Hobie horse), is lacking a self tacker, is missing a spinnaker and does not have nearly enough ropes to pull wink

On the plus side, it was a kick, it can be righted easily (yes I intentionally flipped it qualifying one of our new sailors!) and is a versatile teaching and racing boat. Oh, and by the way, it takes me two hours to rig my N20 and 15 minutes to rig the Hobie.....I'm just sayin...

Different strokes. I don't give a "Flying Scott" what you sail under the "Sun"fish. With "Laser" like precision the "Viper"ous assaults have run their course.

In the end, you are left with your own question to answer....."Ho...bie or not Ho...bie that is the question.".

Peace out, just keep one hull out of the water and it will be a'ight.

In sailing,

Ken Altman
Fleet Captain OSYC
N20 "Kani Basami"

P.S.: Come to my damn Regatta on July 4-5 (Horn Island Hop) and bring what u got. We have enough beer to solve the problems of the world.

Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: Goclaw] #181263
06/07/09 02:50 PM
06/07/09 02:50 PM

X
xanderwess
Unregistered
xanderwess
Unregistered
X



Hey, shout out to Jerome: What is up my friend? Looking forward to seeing you next spring hopefully in Ocean Springs.

Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: ] #181279
06/07/09 06:54 PM
06/07/09 06:54 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 894
Branford, CT
rhodysail Offline
old hand
rhodysail  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 894
Branford, CT
Just got back from a points regatta at Sandy Hook. We had a nice fleet of 6 IWCA Waves racing, good to see.

[Linked Image]

Last edited by rhodysail; 06/07/09 07:37 PM.
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: mmiller] #181470
06/08/09 09:45 PM
06/08/09 09:45 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Matt Miller wrote
Quote
What made Hobie work in multiple classes was the camaraderie of "Hobie", but we were getting thinned out by our own multiple classes and "Dude" boat mentality. Bigger, better, faster... more money, more rules and less fun. 204 has understood this all along and promotes a class that draws people in.

This is what the HCA is after as a whole... hold on to a few of the most active classes and build back on the fun. It is a bit like Harley Davidson in a way. Hobie people like to hang with other like-minded and yes, branded people. Its just the way people are... car clubs, bike clubs... whatever. They like it when things are pretty much alike. Before I EVER got into racing... we hung at a Hobie beach and Prindle had their area. It is just the way schools of fish are. Trying to stretch that to include all cats as one group is really... out there. It works in a way, but... not really tight like your own boats. H16, N20, F18 whatever. They gravitate to each other. That is the same at Yacht Clubs... the specific fleet guys hang together for the most part. When the Hobie fleets ended up with so many classes of boats and then different multihulls, the comraderie changed and thinned out. Hobie didn't kill it... its just the way things changed over time.


In Hobie Alter's interview with SA... He stated... He was told and agreed with the notion to NOT let the RACERS run the class... cause they would ruin it. Well, it turns out that the racers are the survivors here... not the Hobie Lifestyle sailors... In 2009, It is the racers who have the commitment to keep the organization needed to get a critical mass of people out to a race at a regatta. The racers definition of fun has become very similar to any one design class (big boat or dinghy or cat class) I have looked at. Good racing with lots of boats = fun

The Hobie experience is one where the overwhelming majority of sailors got their start in the Hobie 16 class where the shared experience again is racing on the course and then this experience develops into the social structure of the beach. Hobie Alter successfully turned this relationship 180 degrees. He marketed and branded "the Hobie Lifestyle" first... by Lifestye I mean, the beach experience, camraderie, etc with SMOD racing. This is not the conventional way of building a class but was a great business plan and it worked for years and years.

As you noted... many of these 16 sailors then moved on to one of the other Hobie classes, (new and better yada yada yada always sells.. = good business decision) but creating lots of H branded classes is ALSO counter to a One design class's interest. Many racers moved to those other H class and other catamaran classes (oops) or even big multihulls and so the HCA artificially creating and running lots of H branded racing classes did not work as you note and slowly melted away.

At any rate… if you separate the Yacht Club/Hobie fleet from the Hobie Class business of promoting their OD class (like every class does and should) and have each OD Class ask the local Hobie club or Yacht club to host their single One design class event… the sailors in each class in the region would own the results and the YC / Hobie Fleet could worry about the budget and how to attract more fleets (high performance monohulls and other cat OD classes) or they could worry about the Dude classes versus more family friendly classes... the type of events (distance or buoy) or work on growing a Wave class, or any other creative solution that speaks to the decline of interest that Pat B spoke about in the Question thread and every YC is struggling with. Fun is the reason any sailing class gets it together to go racing.... It just will look a bit different then back in the Hobie lifestyle days.

For example, Division 11 took advantage of the change in Hobie policy to run a Hobie 14 points regatta at Rock Hall Yacht Club which is hosting a lot of monohull and other cat fleets. A good solution for the YC, (more sailors) Good for the H16 sailors who can bring out the ol H14 without missing a beat on the H16 circuit for the one H14 event a year on the schedule.... (even though they are always invited to points regattas) and it’s good if they have kids who want to race their H16 or TheMightyHobie18 boat in the open class. Variety is the spice of life.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: Mark Schneider] #181473
06/08/09 10:18 PM
06/08/09 10:18 PM

X
xanderwess
Unregistered
xanderwess
Unregistered
X



So Mark, you lost me......I didn't get it.....you didn't really bitch about anything at all in that last post......now I am getting a little nervous.......what the hell are you up to?

Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: Mark Schneider] #181497
06/09/09 07:37 AM
06/09/09 07:37 AM

A
andrewscott
Unregistered
andrewscott
Unregistered
A



Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Well, it turns out that the racers are the survivors here... not the Hobie Lifestyle sailors...

I see many more casual cat sailors at my beach than i do racers....

Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: ] #181500
06/09/09 08:10 AM
06/09/09 08:10 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
No doubt! On my beach I am the only racer and the other sailors have absolutely NO... nada ... interest in organizing any sailing, much less racing. Sandy Hook has at least a 100 boats but few race.

At any marina... the overwhelming majority of monohulls don't race either.

THESE FOLKS DON'T NEED OR WANT A CLASS... They want a dealer to service their boat and a pleasant no hassle beach to sail from... The don't need to organize at all! Few probably belong to a sailing club either. ... the big issues are probobaly cutting grass, paying the bills, repairing the grills... having inflated tires on trailers so management can move them and keep the place trimmed... management type stuff.

Racer's on the other hand have to agree on a lot of details... So... that is the debate .. How do the racing classes interact with each other and the Yacht clubs/Hobie Fleets who put on the racing.

If a recreational sailor decided to give it a try... the racers would bend over backwards to help him out... BUT... he still might feel like he doesn't fit in (unwelcome).... see Tom Korz and his Dude boat observation... see Matt Miller and his branding observation, see the IWCA and their unique courses that work for them, See Tami and her idea that most of us ought to get the same kind of boat and leave the rest of the casual racers alone, etc. Lots of issues and ideas...

It SHOULD be total noise/BS for a non racer.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Unwelcome.... re Waves [Re: Mark Schneider] #181511
06/09/09 09:10 AM
06/09/09 09:10 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 887
Crofton, MD
Chris9 Offline
old hand
Chris9  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 887
Crofton, MD
Hey, get off of here and respond to my email...., leave these fine people alone and answer my question, please. smile Include in your answer how your sail home was on Sunday


Chris Allen
Nacra 20 Gertie
www.wrcra.org
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