Mike,

I totally agree with you. If the Viper is marketed as an F16 and carries the F16 rating I would have no problem with it. Now because of this decision of the dealer in EU, I wouldn't consider the Viper as an option when buying a new boat.

Gill

Do you have the same hesitation about racing 1-up F16s on a different number? Do all other formula classes rate out to the same number on SCHRS or Texel (they do on USSA Portsmouth)? I cannot check out the sites from this computer.

The base F16 calculations in SCHRS uses a crew of two. I think if you recalc with one, it will go down, but I'm not a SCHRS person....

Formula 16 rating: 1.008
Rating Data Points
CW Number of Crew 2
AL Max. overall length
(Post 2007) 5m
CM Max. Mainsail area 15.00m²
WS Min. sailing weight 107kg
VLM Max. Mainsail Vertical Luff 8.1m
CJ Max. Jib Area 3.7m²
VLJ Max. Jib Vertical Luff 6.00m
(C)SPI Max. Spinnaker area 17.5m²
CB Max. Board area 0.2m²
VLB Max. Board depth 0.9m
BM Maximum Beam of the boat 2.500m
NT Number of Crew using Trapeze 2

Rating Calculations
L Rated Length 5m
WC Crew Weight 150kg
W Rated Weight 257kg
XM Mainsail Aspect Ratio 4.374
ME Mainsail Efficiency 87.871%
XJ Jib Aspect Ratio 9.73
JE Jib Efficiency 96.225%
A Rated Sail Area 18.121m²
SP Forward Area 4.94m²
XB Board Aspect Ratio 4.05
BC Board Correction 4.038

Please note the calculations above are for illustration only and are rounded to 3 decimal places


Mike

The single handed F16 has a SCHRS rating lower than the double handed. That's the rating of the box rule. If your boat is optimized to the rule like the Blade, the Falcon or the Stealth F16, that's your rating. Now if your boat is measured and it turns out for some reason the rating is higher on that particular boat or design I don't see why it should race with the lower rating.

Note that this applies to handicap races only. On handicap I'll take any advantage I can get. And every single boat is entitled to its measured handicap.

So yes, the Viper *is* a F16, as my oldish Stealth is, after all they fit the box rule. But we have higher handicaps because the measured boat is what it is.

Now, if we are talking about a F16 event, like the UK TT our our nationals coming up next week end, well, there is no handicap there, first one over the line wins. If like me you have a slower boat, well, tough.

Eric says what I would have said.

See here: http://www.schrs.com/ratings.php?pageNum_List=0&totalRows_List=261

The F16 Viper sails as an F16. AHPC F16 Viper Refer to F16

The Viper sails on 1.041.

If you sail a Viper at an F16 event, you are a F16 and sail first boat wins

If you sail a Handicap event, you can choose to sail as an F16, and use the F16 rating, and win an F16 prize if one is available, or you can sail as a VIPER (note no F16 in the name), claim the slower rating BUT YOU CANNOT win an F16 prize if they are awarded.

Who is the EU dealor for the Viper F16 exactly ?

Wouter

? What is the opinion on center sheeting option on Viper?

Doug

There are 5 european dealers: <http://www.ahpc.com.au/Brett_Dealers.htm>. One of them is Francis Ferrari from sailfast.fr. For him having a cat that is rating between 1.03 and 1.04 is important as it is the sweet spot for the F104, the french class that's not really a class.

Eric, As far as I understand F104, it's between 1.035 and 1.045; Viper rates 1.041 2 up.

Can not vote, so I'll post Viper.

I would be carefull when discussing 'Optimised F16' The Viper could be lighter but also ticks the right boxes in other areas to make up for it's weight over the other F16s. Pretty quick also for a 'heavyweight' if you look at the F16 results. As far as I am concerned, there has not been an optimised F16 built yet. Still plenty of pace to squeeze out of the box rule.

What I would really lke is a full carbon Viper down to min weight.

Doug,
I would get a ride on each of the boats and then decide which one you like/can get the best deal on. To me, there seems to be very little performance difference between them. I think each boat has its advantages and conditions it excels in.
AHPC and the Viper have been great for F16 in the pan handle. There are 5 new Vipers within easy driving distance of local regattas. Also, AHPC's support of the Alter Cup will give F16 a lot of publicity and bring 10+ new boats to the US.

You aren't the first person to make this comment. So, I'm curious has to what you would do to make it "full" compliant other than making it full carbon to get down to minimum weight.

I have one, so I can say anything I want...

However, I'm pretty much a beginner, so I don't know what I'm doing.


Mike

My personal opinions and concerns:

1. Concerns about the clew attachment and luff tension (sail does not currently attach to the boom)
2. Is the boom beefy enough?
3. Is the tramp reinforced for it?
4. How does a mushy tramp affect performance?

and one that cannot be overcome is:

5. The tramp is too small for 2-up and center sheeting

That being said, I have never tried it.

Have a viper and love it. Probably one of the best boats I have ever owned. Just about sails itself upwind, and once you get it planing downwind with the kite up, it is fast and unbelievably stable.

Just a really well put together package. Agree with the other poster. if you're in the market, it is really more of a viper versus falcon design face off than viper versus blade.

Don't be so quick to write off the Blade, especially from the used market. I get a little better performance each time I sail.

I haven't seen that either the Viper or Falcon is any better. At this point, it's all still about the sailor.

What I have noticed is that sailing uni in 6-8 knots the sloops are hard pressed.

A wise man once said that any boat is a series of compromises. Choose your poison based on personal preference, options and resources.

Tom-
If anybody knows how to make center sheeting work, AHPC does- it's a common setup in AUS apparently- my Taipan (1997 model and was Greg's personal "demo" before I got it) came with it, and the tramp on a (stock) Taipan is considerably more crowded than any of the new F16's due to narrower boat and jib that sheets to tramp. The center sheeting boom is larger diameter, tramps come w/ reinforcing and grommet for just that purpose. It IS very different from rear sheeting however as you pass "through" the "window" between the mainsheet blocks at stern and blocks that lead down to center-sheeting. Another option is to put the last block on the boom itself, rather than running down to the tramp, and some Taipan sailors have done that, all depends on what feels more comfortable to you. Center sheeting very popular in "A" class (but no crew to worry about there!).

Kirt

Center sheeting as mentioned is structurly sound from AHPC. I do not like the feel of it and prefer rear beam sheeting however it is personal preferance.

As for F16, I like the look off the Viper and am an ex Capricorn sailor, however have not sailed one as yet but may have to line up a test ride.

Thanks to Phil, I have sailed a Blade and was quiet impressed with it.

About 6 or 7 years ago I sailed a Taipan 4.9 with kite in the first AUS F16 regatta. Not bad to sail but could do with more boyancy up front when it got fresh. The kite we had was a shocker also as it was a recut 16 skiff kite.

Is it any more likely now that you will finally come over to F16 Stephen?

Getting Married in Feb, just bought a block of land and currently looking at building, so there will be a delay so this season looks like another boatless one (may have to crew for someone). Hopping to fix this in the next 12 to 18 months though.