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Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: macca] #196260
11/14/09 07:09 AM
11/14/09 07:09 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
*laughs* You are good at trying to blame others and trying to be smart without succeeding. It is a transparent as it can be.

Wait for your confirmation then, and wether the Maricat qualifies, before you take your fancy to the members forum. If you are a member, the members forum is where class business like class rules are discussed.

Until then:

Stop making yourself look like a clown. Returning to this Don Quixote quest with the min weight and trying to be smart playing word games. It is not going to happen. If you want to try raising min weight, here is the info you need:

Become a member here: http://www.formula16.net/content/view/60/63/lang,en/

You find the class rules here: http://www.formula16.net/content/view/19/34/lang,en/

Until you do it the proper way, leave the subject alone or get out of here.

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Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #196261
11/14/09 07:30 AM
11/14/09 07:30 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
old hand
macca  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
Rolf,

I am not blaming anyone, I am simply stating that I have paid my membership fee and completed the member info form and as such I am a paid member of the F16 class.

You are happy to take my money, but not my opinion??

Oh, and my Maricat meets the class rules, although maybe the mast tip needs a bit of weight... will make sure I bring some lead to the F16 intergalactics next time.. (not that its a pre-requesite for class membership to own a class compliant boat??)


________________________
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Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: macca] #196263
11/14/09 07:34 AM
11/14/09 07:34 AM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 88
South Australia
Phile Offline
journeyman
Phile  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 88
South Australia
So "Sue" has acquired a Viper. She could paint it pink and get sponsorship from Ella Bache, just like young Jessica Watson.

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: Phile] #196264
11/14/09 07:50 AM
11/14/09 07:50 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
old hand
macca  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
Nice idea!!! Sue's better half would be up for it for sure.


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Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: Phile] #196265
11/14/09 07:54 AM
11/14/09 07:54 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 221
Netherlands
Hans_Ned_111 Offline
enthusiast
Hans_Ned_111  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 221
Netherlands
Andrew,

If you are a paid up member of F16 why are you complaining overhere about the F16 and not at the F16 member
forum. If you are F16 member you made a good thought about this choice because i think you did this because you want to be part of F16 and you would like the class as it is otherwise i can image that you would not join. If you don't like something you will not particpate in that when you have the choice.

It is also that when you are a paid up member you will get access to the F16 member forum when you subscribe to the forum.


Best regards,

Hans Klok

Web : http://www.catamaranparts.nl
Blog : http://catamaranparts.blogspot.nl
Mail : info@catamaranparts.nl

Raptor F16 and A-class builder
Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: macca] #196266
11/14/09 08:02 AM
11/14/09 08:02 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
old hand
Stewart  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
If the top three teams want to say.. they are free to post.. However their words are no more or less than any other members..


Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: Stewart] #196267
11/14/09 08:03 AM
11/14/09 08:03 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893
W
waynemarlow Offline
old hand
waynemarlow  Offline
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W

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893
What a load of old bollocks Macca, you of all people know how production boats are built, you of all people know that on modern hull designs weight is not the factor it once was, you of all people know that we have been here before and discussed this very issue at length with the out come being, get your "rule change" into print and let the members vote. After all you were promoting that you had a F16 cat and could be a voting member.

I am really not sure raising the weight is to going to help any manufacturer anyway, the Viper is a seriously fast boat within the F16 class even if it is a few kilos " porky ", so if you already have a very saleable item that is doing well then why change it.

Anyway we all know it has over strength / weight beams, dagger boards and rudder systems designed for its F18 sister, perhaps when the volumes come up a little those items could be slimmed down with little loss of strength and reliability and indeed it would be an even greater boat, just gone on a diet.

What my beef mainly is though that Sproat has chosen the soft option of taking the soft handicap, I certainly would consider ballasting up my boat to gain the soft handicap as it really peeved me to be so far ahead of the F18's in the 3 Piers race and then be way behind them on handicap. They of all boats have a real soft handicap in my opinion.

Mind you it does tell us that the weight factor in the handicapping ratings is now out of skelter with the modern hull design, I'm sure Simon will argue against that but from where I sit the manufacturers making over weight porky boats are being given a huge advantage over a manufacturer who is more weight conscious.

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: sailfast] #196269
11/14/09 08:17 AM
11/14/09 08:17 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


Quote

Hi Wouter,

I really don't want to have a polemic discussion,

...



Sailfast, all technical issues have been well researched when we started the F16 class back in 2001. This situation is as it is and has been justified many times over since then. Argueing against well established truths is pointless in my opinion.

Since 2004 I personally have a Taipan 4.9 (widened to 2.5 mtr) with a spinnaker and I'm prefectly happy with that design so far. I disagree with anybody who claims that the Taipan can't handle a spinnaker; indeed I experienced more violant pitchpoles while sailing the Hobie Tiger. My own boat uses no carbon fibre or anything and costed me 12500 to build and is still lighter then any Viper version. The reason why the Viper is as it is comes from commercial considerations only, not technical or even costs. It has all to do with available local building facilities, work force expertise and profit margins.

Lets not forget that my Taipan is just as much a viable F16 as the Viper F16 is. I haven't broken any major component yet (while being lighter then the Viper) and it was build by amateurs in a shed behind the house. As a result I don't understand why the min. class weight should be raised so as to DISQUALIFY my Taipan F16 in favour of making the younger Viper F16's look better on paper.

If a company builds a heavier F16 then that is their decision and their "issue" only. This is allowed under the F16 class rules but it is beyond imagination to ask the other class members/builders to disqualify themselves in deference to such a choice. Anybody still enjoying such an idea in his or her is adviced to make an appointment will a physician or neurologist.

Personnally, I feel the Viper is an excellent design that doesn't need any rewriting of the F16 class rules to be competitive or to be marketable to customers. Suggesting otherwise doesn't do the design justice and is higher disruptive to our great little F16 class. But I guess that is the exact intent of some posters here.

With respect to Nacra or Hobie not being able to build a real F16 ;

-1- That is not our problem, but their problem ! (Apparently even I as an amateur beat them on that)
-2- Explain why can Hobie build and market the 100kg or less carbon iCat but not a glass/alu 107-112 kg F16 ?
-3- What should the F16 min. weight be when not a single Nacra sloop rigged spinnaker boat was ever certified as being under 150 kg ready to sail ?

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: Stewart] #196270
11/14/09 08:23 AM
11/14/09 08:23 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

Quote

If the top three teams want to say.. they are free to post.. However their words are no more or less than any other members..


And who is to say that they do not support the current F16 rule set ? I never heard JC for example complain about the F16's being to lightweight (or fragile).

We may find that the opinion to raise minimum weight is also a minority there; among the top racers.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: Wouter] #196272
11/14/09 08:58 AM
11/14/09 08:58 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 10
France
S
sailfast Offline
stranger
sailfast  Offline
stranger
S

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 10
France
Wouter,

i think you have'nt understand my view.
sorry with my bad english it's not easy, perraps read again.

neither i speak about change class weight.
made change who exclude some actual boats will be bad.

My view is a good boat in 1-up at weight isn't a problem.

For what i know, you are a lot to sail in 1-up.

in 2-up loads are really differents, in 2-up it's more difficult to have a boat at weight.

Without new class regulation i'm affraid in few years boats will be expensive.

Like said A Viper full carbon will be at weight, faster ...but expensive.

I don't want made a revolution (ok i know it's so French),I only prevent.






-2- Explain why can Hobie build and market the 100kg or less carbon iCat but not a glass/alu 107-112 kg F16 ? Perraps boat is build for 1-up only ;-)

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: macca] #196277
11/14/09 10:42 AM
11/14/09 10:42 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,046
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,046
Sebring, Florida.
I am at home right now but in an hour I will be heading back to Gulfport to watch today's finish of the GC, and I will try to track down the top 3 and ask them what they think. Remember, the number 1 and likely winner is a Viper dealer, number 2 races F18 and is on a borrowed Viper, number 3 is on a Viper as well and depending on today's finishes, number 4 or 5 is Greg Goodall.

The Viper is a great boat, no doubt, nobody has ever said it was not, including me, the debate here is WHY would you (Macca) want to raise the F16 Class minimum wt? And if it were raised, what happens to the Taipans who were the first F16's? Would you have them carry 20 Kilos?

And what if Matt can build a Falcon to say, 102kg, should we then LOWER the class min. wt? It's the same (stupid) argument.

Should the Builders set the rules or the CLASS MEMBERS?

Sounds like Macca wants Nacra rules all over again...


Blade F16
#777
Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: Timbo] #196287
11/14/09 12:20 PM
11/14/09 12:20 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 549
Knokke-Heist - Belgium
Gilo Offline
addict
Gilo  Offline
addict

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 549
Knokke-Heist - Belgium
Macca,

Does Nacra plan any winter training in Holland? (now that we are off topic...)


Falcon F16 - BEL666
Boats: TheBoatShop.be
Stories: bladef16.blogspot.com
Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: sailfast] #196288
11/14/09 01:45 PM
11/14/09 01:45 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Quote

For what i know, you are a lot to sail in 1-up.

in 2-up loads are really differents, in 2-up it's more difficult to have a boat at weight.



Your first assumption is wrong as I've sailed almost exclusively 2-up for the first 2 years of owning my Taipan F16.

Your second assumption is also wrong in the sense that while the stresses are indeed different, a 107 kg glass/alu F16 can still handle them very well.

Thirdly, both setups were EXTENSIVELY researched when we formed the class rules and we found no technical reason to increase the min. weight beyond 107 kg. That means you can get down to that weight by using plain glass/vinylester/alu construction against justifiable cost


Quote

Without new class regulation i'm affraid in few years boats will be expensive.


We are almost 9 years down the road already and the F16's are STILL 15% or more cheaper then the F18's. I can buy a competitive F16 for 15.000 Euro's while an competitive F18 does 18.000 these days. Up till now alu masted F16's won 2 global challenges against 1 carbon masted F16. The wins are respectively 2007, 2008, 2009 : VWM Blade, a Stealth and a Viper. You can't get a more balanced outcome then that.

Fear is a undependable consultant, facts in life thus far simply do not provide a basis for such angst.

There have been dire warnings of impeding doom ever since our inception and still the F16 class survives and grows.

If there is one thing that I learned from sailing then it must be to not fiddle about with the trim of my sails when I'm ahead. I feel the F16 class is much more helped by this advice. We should strive to only find solutions to actual problems and not the other way around.


Quote

Like said A Viper full carbon will be at weight, faster ...but expensive.


Personally I disagree here; I feel that very little difference between a 107 kg F16 and a 120 kg F16. Weight is simply not such a big factor on modern spi equipped catamarans as was the case in the old days (Dart 18 , hobie 16 etc). We also see this when 125 kg crews race against 155 kg crews.

I also don't believe a FULL carbon Viper is needed to get down to weight. By general claim the Viper hulls are what ? 26 kg ? A 110 kg Blade or Falcon has hulls that weight 24-25 kg and all boats (Viper, Blade, Falcon) use the exact same mast sections. The weight difference between the "light F16's" and Vipers are to be found in the beams, rudder setup and daggerboards. The 2007 global challenge Viper weighted (including repairs) 134 kg and its daggerboards + rudders (combined 15 kg) were already 8 kg heavier then my own AHPC Taipan 4.9 set. Note that my set is 7 kg combined including the storage bag and that the www.catamaranparts.nl set is less then 6 kg. A wopping 9 kg difference for identical retail prices and the lighter sets all survived the Global challenge and the Alter Cup 2007. In constrast Viper boards broke in Singapore.

Like I said in the beginning. The weight of the Viper is a commercially inspired CHOICE, not a necessacity. I agree with Greg Goodall however, that overall weight is not a such big factor in overall performance. Every customer should buy a boat he is happy with and just learn to sail it to the max.

The companies VectorWorks/FalconMarine, StealthMarine, AHPC (Taipan + spi) and Australian Formula catamarans all build F16 (compliant) boats that weight between 107-115 kg in the standard glass/vinylester/alu attire. Upgrades may lower their weights. Amateur homebuilds are in the range 105-120 kg

It is only AHPC who builds a 130 kg F16 as the standard 2-up Viper F16

I think this proofs beyond a doubt that it is the Viper that is the odd one in a pretty straightforward situation.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 11/14/09 02:05 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: Wouter] #196289
11/14/09 02:52 PM
11/14/09 02:52 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 10
France
S
sailfast Offline
stranger
sailfast  Offline
stranger
S

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 10
France
Like i already write i don't want polemic, and speak about this one is better, this one is weighter ...
so it's my last post on this subject.

for information, on my Capricorns rudders + daggerboards are only 12,64 kg ... and daggerboards are realy longer and weighter than Viper one ..
I ofen seen Viper dagerboards under 2 kg.

(you could download measurment form on f18.fr if you want)

We'll keep on our position.
i said my feeling, you said your one.

Only futur could said the true.

I hope next season could tell about with you around a beer on a race.

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: sailfast] #196292
11/14/09 03:09 PM
11/14/09 03:09 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
If you toss in some red wine or liquor instead of beer I would be happy to partake. Which events do you plan to attend?

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #196294
11/14/09 03:38 PM
11/14/09 03:38 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
old hand
macca  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
How about grandfathering all existing F16 boats that are lighter than 125kg?

They are not as quick as a Viper anyway so there is no impact on new (heavier) boats being sold.

And, Gilo.. I have no plans to sail in Holland until it warms up again.. maybe in April!!


________________________
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Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: macca] #196295
11/14/09 03:42 PM
11/14/09 03:42 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
old hand
macca  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
Rolf,

It would appear that the treasurer @ Formula16. org email address is not working... perhaps this could explain the issue?



________________________
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Re: Another F16 class rules Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: macca] #196297
11/14/09 03:48 PM
11/14/09 03:48 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
What makes you believe the adress dont work.

Other F16s not as quick as vipers laugh laugh laugh laugh Oh you really are making a fool out of yourself. You intend to take this sillyness how far??


Stop making yourself look like a clown. Returning to this Don Quixote quest with the min weight and trying to be smart playing word games. It is not going to happen. If you want to try raising min weight, here is the info you need, but you are waisting your time:

Become a member here: http://www.formula16.net/content/view/60/63/lang,en/

You find the class rules here: http://www.formula16.net/content/view/19/34/lang,en/

Until you do it the proper way, leave the subject alone or get out of here.

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #196298
11/14/09 03:55 PM
11/14/09 03:55 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
old hand
macca  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
Rolf,

I emailed you a copy of the Paypal transaction page last night and copied the treasuer @ formula16 .org (that address is also shown as a contact on the paypal payment page).

The treasuer email address bounces, so maybe you guys haven't paid your bill??


________________________
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Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! [Re: macca] #196299
11/14/09 03:57 PM
11/14/09 03:57 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
It is spelled "treasurer" not "treasuer".

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