| Re: Annual cost comparison between makes
[Re: Dazz]
#197298 11/22/09 07:49 PM 11/22/09 07:49 PM |
Joined: Feb 2008 Posts: 242 Brisveagas Aido
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Posts: 242 Brisveagas | A mate of mine gets his assasin moth at the start of December. So I'll guess we will find out what's faster. Even with a even crew skills I wouldn't expect the moth to flog an f16. It would be very close. The moth has some pretty wide tacking angles.
Aido Viper 288
| | | Re: Annual cost comparison between makes
[Re: Aido]
#197300 11/22/09 08:20 PM 11/22/09 08:20 PM |
Joined: Sep 2006 Posts: 586 Hobart, Tasmania, Oz. Dazz
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Posts: 586 Hobart, Tasmania, Oz. | We had a regatta about 3 weeks ago, I sailed the f18 and we had a mixture of a-class and taipan 4.9's in the fleet.
the moths showed up with a skill range from 10th in the last worlds to a beginner with 2 months experience.
upwind we were fine, pointing miles higher and going away but downwind the moths trundled away, it was very impressive.
we could hold our own with the newbie but the pro was long gone. If your a good sailor then the potential of the moth is just awesome.
If only I was 20 kilos lighter and years younger!
I now have a new found respect for their speed potential.
C2 AUS 222 by Goodall design "Darph Bobo"
| | | Re: Annual cost comparison between makes
[Re: Dazz]
#197305 11/22/09 09:35 PM 11/22/09 09:35 PM |
Joined: Feb 2008 Posts: 242 Brisveagas Aido
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Posts: 242 Brisveagas | Don't be a pussy get to the top mark first and send it.
Aido Viper 288
| | | Re: Annual cost comparison between makes
[Re: taipanfc]
#197309 11/22/09 10:33 PM 11/22/09 10:33 PM |
Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: 1,479 Thailand Buccaneer
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Posts: 1,479 Thailand | So what's the learning curve like and weight limitations? Downwind the moth kills the F16 once on the foils. On one of the few times I sailed against the Nacra 20, I had given them a 200m headstart and still beat them to the bottom mark.
We do have wider tacking angles, but these narrow as the boats get faster. 14-16 knots upwind is common.
Hit 26+ knots yesterday downhill and the wind was only in the high teens...
But there is a massive and long learning curve in them with lots of swimming. And yes Wouter, we can't launch through the surf, but majority of people don't.
So bang for buck, they are certainly great value.
And who pays VAT/GST on the full price?
"House prices have risen by nearly 25 percent over the past two years. Although speculative activity has increased in some areas, at a national level these price increases largely reflect strong economic fundamentals." – Ben Bernanke – 2005
| | | Re: Annual cost comparison between makes
[Re: Buccaneer]
#197313 11/22/09 11:18 PM 11/22/09 11:18 PM |
Joined: Sep 2006 Posts: 586 Hobart, Tasmania, Oz. Dazz
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Posts: 586 Hobart, Tasmania, Oz. | The local guy went from never sailed one to 10th in the world in a little over 2 years. The impressive part is he didn't have anyone to sail with in the beginning but now a fleet is steadily growing.
two months should get your around the course with a couple of swims at the most, if the breeze is steady. The new boats have inflatable pockets under the wings, seems to help them a lot getting going.
The moths have a lot going for them, 1/3 the weight of a f16 (1/5 an f18), 1/2 the cost of a new one, and at very least comparable speed.
good on them for being truly development class, it certainly hasn't hurt them in the long run!
C2 AUS 222 by Goodall design "Darph Bobo"
| | | Re: Annual cost comparison between makes
[Re: taipanfc]
#197314 11/22/09 11:27 PM 11/22/09 11:27 PM |
Joined: Feb 2008 Posts: 242 Brisveagas Aido
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Posts: 242 Brisveagas | What about round the track? It appears that the good foilers are slightly quicker than a good A class. The modern f18s around here are a lot faster than an A, and make the old n 20 look pretty sad. The f16 eats As for breakfast as well. That's what makes me think it would be pretty close.
Aido Viper 288
| | | Re: Annual cost comparison between makes
[Re: Buccaneer]
#197316 11/23/09 12:11 AM 11/23/09 12:11 AM |
Joined: Jul 2002 Posts: 539 taipanfc
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Posts: 539 | So what's the learning curve like and weight limitations? Downwind the moth kills the F16 once on the foils. On one of the few times I sailed against the Nacra 20, I had given them a 200m headstart and still beat them to the bottom mark.
We do have wider tacking angles, but these narrow as the boats get faster. 14-16 knots upwind is common.
Hit 26+ knots yesterday downhill and the wind was only in the high teens...
But there is a massive and long learning curve in them with lots of swimming. And yes Wouter, we can't launch through the surf, but majority of people don't.
So bang for buck, they are certainly great value.
And who pays VAT/GST on the full price? Ideal weight range is 60-85kg. Can go little higher than that though. But whatever weight you are, can tailor your mast/sail for it. Learning curve, is up to you. The more you put into it, the more you get out of it. Can't emphasise this enough. Within a month or 2 you will be able to get around the course. Main thing is just changing your thinking to include the foils rather than just trim and steering. | | | Re: Annual cost comparison between makes
[Re: taipanfc]
#197322 11/23/09 05:50 AM 11/23/09 05:50 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe Wouter OP
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Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe | The moths are a really impressive designs TaipanFC. I have even proposed using them for novice control engineering student as a project. I thought there are excellent subjects that speak to the imagination of the student and allow for the optimization of simple non externally powered control systems. I would love to give one a try sometimes or indeed cooperate in developing an automatic control setup as suggested above. Take some work load of the driver. My other reply was just a playful stab back, nothing serious I also like doing distances races and take a friend along. Other then that I believe a top 10 crew in the F18 worlds could also pump some more performance out of the F18's (and F16's) then we all can. However, the moth will never be a slow boat, that is for sure ! So you got a point on "bang for the buck". Regards, wouter
Last edited by Wouter; 11/23/09 05:57 AM.
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
| | | Re: Annual cost comparison between makes
[Re: Dazz]
#197323 11/23/09 05:52 AM 11/23/09 05:52 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe Wouter OP
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Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe | good on them for being truly development class, it certainly hasn't hurt them in the long run!
That is actually a very good point ! Wouter
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
| | | Re: Annual cost comparison between makes
[Re: Tony_F18]
#197326 11/23/09 07:12 AM 11/23/09 07:12 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe Wouter OP
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Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe | Tony, I should have used the nomer "Purchase costs" as was indeed the true subject of my posting. However, I also think as much was obvious from the context and layout of my post. Other then that I rather spend money on my own boat and campaign then on somebody elses. Pro-teams should finance themselves by sponsoring or price money and not by higher purchase prices charged to mere mortals like myself. And of course F18's are build in much larger series, what happened to economy of scale ? Wouter
Last edited by Wouter; 11/23/09 07:33 AM.
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
| | | Re: Annual cost comparison between makes
[Re: Wouter]
#197338 11/23/09 09:40 AM 11/23/09 09:40 AM |
Joined: Jul 2002 Posts: 539 taipanfc
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Posts: 539 | The moths are a really impressive designs TaipanFC. I have even proposed using them for novice control engineering student as a project. I thought there are excellent subjects that speak to the imagination of the student and allow for the optimization of simple non externally powered control systems. I would love to give one a try sometimes or indeed cooperate in developing an automatic control setup as suggested above. Take some work load of the driver. My other reply was just a playful stab back, nothing serious I also like doing distances races and take a friend along. Other then that I believe a top 10 crew in the F18 worlds could also pump some more performance out of the F18's (and F16's) then we all can. However, the moth will never be a slow boat, that is for sure ! So you got a point on "bang for the buck". Regards, wouter There are a few moths in Netherlands now. Look up a guy called Eelco Boers. And for the control set up, still lots of development to go. Latest is a manual ride adjuster. Allows you to ride high upwind, and then you dial it down for the downwinds, so when your speed increases you can still ride high and in control rather than having ventilation problems. Adds about 2-3 knots of speed difference! But gearing and sensitivity, plus trying to work out why and when vortices appear are parts of the engineering equation you would love. For me, just get on, sheet in, and launch! | | | Re: Annual cost comparison between makes
[Re: taipanfc]
#197440 11/24/09 03:34 AM 11/24/09 03:34 AM |
Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 571 Hamburg Smiths_Cat
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Posts: 571 Hamburg | And yes Wouter, we can't launch through the surf, but majority of people don't. Are you sure? Maight be different on other continents. Cheers, Klaus | | | Re: Annual cost comparison between makes
[Re: Dazz]
#197660 11/26/09 10:51 AM 11/26/09 10:51 AM |
Joined: May 2002 Posts: 1,037 Central California ejpoulsen
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Posts: 1,037 Central California | Well here is an embarrassing comparison..... http://www.assassinmoth.com/ASSASSIN RACING GRS - Full complete boat including Assassin/Holroyd Carbon Foils - $15200 NZD (approx $10200 USD and $7200 Euro) Also Includes FREIGHT to all major airports worldwide * these bad boys will give your F16 a sound flogging in anything over 5 knots of breeze. for bang for buck I don't think the current foiling moths can beat Former F16 sailor, Paul K. here in California jumped over to a moth. On a reach we can't touch them; around a course is very dependent on conditions and skill. Based on my chats with Paul, yes, the initial purchase price may be lower, but the cost of ownership may not be so different... Also, keep in mind that the Assassin is the super bargain basement Moth out there right now. If you look at the cost of the Mach and others, you start heading toward A-class costs. I think Paul has a Prowler, but I'm not possitive; anyway, it is a beautiful and expensive sculpture of clear-coated carbon. For example--$16,995 (w/shipping): http://www.opensailingusa.com/Boats/Prowler/Pricing.html
Eric Poulsen A-class USA 203 Ultimate 20 Central California
| | | Re: Annual cost comparison between makes
[Re: ejpoulsen]
#197664 11/26/09 10:59 AM 11/26/09 10:59 AM |
Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 5,525 pgp
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Posts: 5,525 | Happy Thanksgiving! Any regrets in switching to the A class? Pleasant surprises?
Pete Pollard Blade 702
'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
| | | Re: Annual cost comparison between makes
[Re: pgp]
#197667 11/26/09 11:06 AM 11/26/09 11:06 AM |
Joined: May 2002 Posts: 1,037 Central California ejpoulsen
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Posts: 1,037 Central California | Happy Thanksgiving! Any regrets in switching to the A class? Pleasant surprises? I prefer sailing the F16 but I didn't have anyone to sail with/against, so I felt my progress was stagnating. The A-class sailors in California are very good--world champions, olympians, pro sailors, nautical and aerospace engineers, members of the BOR 90 team, etc. So the main thing is that I'm learning a lot.
Eric Poulsen A-class USA 203 Ultimate 20 Central California
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