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Re: Annual cost comparison between makes [Re: Dazz] #197298
11/22/09 07:49 PM
11/22/09 07:49 PM
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Brisveagas
Aido Offline
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A mate of mine gets his assasin moth at the start of December. So I'll guess we will find out what's faster. Even with a even crew skills I wouldn't expect the moth to flog an f16. It would be very close. The moth has some pretty wide tacking angles.


Aido
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Re: Annual cost comparison between makes [Re: Aido] #197300
11/22/09 08:20 PM
11/22/09 08:20 PM
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Hobart, Tasmania, Oz.
Dazz Offline
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We had a regatta about 3 weeks ago, I sailed the f18 and we had a mixture of a-class and taipan 4.9's in the fleet.

the moths showed up with a skill range from 10th in the last worlds to a beginner with 2 months experience.

upwind we were fine, pointing miles higher and going away but downwind the moths trundled away, it was very impressive.

we could hold our own with the newbie but the pro was long gone. If your a good sailor then the potential of the moth is just awesome.

If only I was 20 kilos lighter and years younger!

I now have a new found respect for their speed potential.


C2 AUS 222 by Goodall design
"Darph Bobo"
Re: Annual cost comparison between makes [Re: Dazz] #197305
11/22/09 09:35 PM
11/22/09 09:35 PM
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Aido Offline
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Don't be a pussy get to the top mark first and send it.


Aido
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Re: Annual cost comparison between makes [Re: Aido] #197308
11/22/09 10:20 PM
11/22/09 10:20 PM
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taipanfc Offline
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Downwind the moth kills the F16 once on the foils. On one of the few times I sailed against the Nacra 20, I had given them a 200m headstart and still beat them to the bottom mark.

We do have wider tacking angles, but these narrow as the boats get faster. 14-16 knots upwind is common.

Hit 26+ knots yesterday downhill and the wind was only in the high teens...

But there is a massive and long learning curve in them with lots of swimming. And yes Wouter, we can't launch through the surf, but majority of people don't.

So bang for buck, they are certainly great value.

And who pays VAT/GST on the full price?

Re: Annual cost comparison between makes [Re: taipanfc] #197309
11/22/09 10:33 PM
11/22/09 10:33 PM
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Thailand
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So what's the learning curve like and weight limitations? cool

Originally Posted by taipanfc
Downwind the moth kills the F16 once on the foils. On one of the few times I sailed against the Nacra 20, I had given them a 200m headstart and still beat them to the bottom mark.

We do have wider tacking angles, but these narrow as the boats get faster. 14-16 knots upwind is common.

Hit 26+ knots yesterday downhill and the wind was only in the high teens...

But there is a massive and long learning curve in them with lots of swimming. And yes Wouter, we can't launch through the surf, but majority of people don't.

So bang for buck, they are certainly great value.

And who pays VAT/GST on the full price?


"House prices have risen by nearly 25 percent over the past two years. Although speculative activity has increased in some areas, at a national level these price increases largely reflect strong economic fundamentals." – Ben Bernanke – 2005
Re: Annual cost comparison between makes [Re: Buccaneer] #197313
11/22/09 11:18 PM
11/22/09 11:18 PM
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Hobart, Tasmania, Oz.
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The local guy went from never sailed one to 10th in the world in a little over 2 years. The impressive part is he didn't have anyone to sail with in the beginning but now a fleet is steadily growing.

two months should get your around the course with a couple of swims at the most, if the breeze is steady. The new boats have inflatable pockets under the wings, seems to help them a lot getting going.

The moths have a lot going for them, 1/3 the weight of a f16 (1/5 an f18), 1/2 the cost of a new one, and at very least comparable speed.

good on them for being truly development class, it certainly hasn't hurt them in the long run!


C2 AUS 222 by Goodall design
"Darph Bobo"
Re: Annual cost comparison between makes [Re: taipanfc] #197314
11/22/09 11:27 PM
11/22/09 11:27 PM
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What about round the track? It appears that the good foilers are slightly quicker than a good A class. The modern f18s around here are a lot faster than an A, and make the old n 20 look pretty sad. The f16 eats As for breakfast as well. That's what makes me think it would be pretty close.


Aido
Viper 288
Re: Annual cost comparison between makes [Re: Buccaneer] #197316
11/23/09 12:11 AM
11/23/09 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Buccaneer
So what's the learning curve like and weight limitations? cool

Originally Posted by taipanfc
Downwind the moth kills the F16 once on the foils. On one of the few times I sailed against the Nacra 20, I had given them a 200m headstart and still beat them to the bottom mark.

We do have wider tacking angles, but these narrow as the boats get faster. 14-16 knots upwind is common.

Hit 26+ knots yesterday downhill and the wind was only in the high teens...

But there is a massive and long learning curve in them with lots of swimming. And yes Wouter, we can't launch through the surf, but majority of people don't.

So bang for buck, they are certainly great value.

And who pays VAT/GST on the full price?


Ideal weight range is 60-85kg. Can go little higher than that though. But whatever weight you are, can tailor your mast/sail for it.

Learning curve, is up to you. The more you put into it, the more you get out of it. Can't emphasise this enough. Within a month or 2 you will be able to get around the course. Main thing is just changing your thinking to include the foils rather than just trim and steering.

Re: Annual cost comparison between makes [Re: taipanfc] #197322
11/23/09 05:50 AM
11/23/09 05:50 AM
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Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline OP
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The moths are a really impressive designs TaipanFC.

I have even proposed using them for novice control engineering student as a project. I thought there are excellent subjects that speak to the imagination of the student and allow for the optimization of simple non externally powered control systems.

I would love to give one a try sometimes or indeed cooperate in developing an automatic control setup as suggested above. Take some work load of the driver.

My other reply was just a playful stab back, nothing serious grin

I also like doing distances races and take a friend along. Other then that I believe a top 10 crew in the F18 worlds could also pump some more performance out of the F18's (and F16's) then we all can. However, the moth will never be a slow boat, that is for sure ! So you got a point on "bang for the buck".

Regards,

wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 11/23/09 05:57 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Annual cost comparison between makes [Re: Dazz] #197323
11/23/09 05:52 AM
11/23/09 05:52 AM
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Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline OP
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Quote

good on them for being truly development class, it certainly hasn't hurt them in the long run!



That is actually a very good point !

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Annual cost comparison between makes [Re: Wouter] #197324
11/23/09 06:10 AM
11/23/09 06:10 AM
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We had a Moth compete with us during the autumn cup and their overall speed around the course was not that different from the average F18.
Upwind they lose some (not even that much) but their downwind speed makes up for that big time,
it looks awesome going downwind as well, like it sits on a track or something.

Wouter:
What you looked at was initial purchase price and not actual cost as you state in the subject.
If you would look at the cost per race the F18 is actually a lot cheaper because you can do a lot more races.
For example: you buy a new set of sails each year and do maybe 5 races for the F16 and 30 races for F18 the average cost per race is cheaper, see what I mean?

Another thing you cant see in the price are the costs to run the Pro teams (Nacra+Hobie) and marketing/boat shows/etc.
Add that cost to the F16 prices and I bet they would probably go up as well.

Re: Annual cost comparison between makes [Re: Tony_F18] #197326
11/23/09 07:12 AM
11/23/09 07:12 AM
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Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline OP
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Tony,

I should have used the nomer "Purchase costs" as was indeed the true subject of my posting.

However, I also think as much was obvious from the context and layout of my post.

Other then that I rather spend money on my own boat and campaign then on somebody elses. Pro-teams should finance themselves by sponsoring or price money and not by higher purchase prices charged to mere mortals like myself. grin

And of course F18's are build in much larger series, what happened to economy of scale ?

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 11/23/09 07:33 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Annual cost comparison between makes [Re: Wouter] #197338
11/23/09 09:40 AM
11/23/09 09:40 AM
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taipanfc Offline
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Originally Posted by Wouter


The moths are a really impressive designs TaipanFC.

I have even proposed using them for novice control engineering student as a project. I thought there are excellent subjects that speak to the imagination of the student and allow for the optimization of simple non externally powered control systems.

I would love to give one a try sometimes or indeed cooperate in developing an automatic control setup as suggested above. Take some work load of the driver.

My other reply was just a playful stab back, nothing serious grin

I also like doing distances races and take a friend along. Other then that I believe a top 10 crew in the F18 worlds could also pump some more performance out of the F18's (and F16's) then we all can. However, the moth will never be a slow boat, that is for sure ! So you got a point on "bang for the buck".

Regards,

wouter


There are a few moths in Netherlands now. Look up a guy called Eelco Boers.

And for the control set up, still lots of development to go. Latest is a manual ride adjuster. Allows you to ride high upwind, and then you dial it down for the downwinds, so when your speed increases you can still ride high and in control rather than having ventilation problems. Adds about 2-3 knots of speed difference!

But gearing and sensitivity, plus trying to work out why and when vortices appear are parts of the engineering equation you would love. For me, just get on, sheet in, and launch!


Re: Annual cost comparison between makes [Re: taipanfc] #197415
11/23/09 07:24 PM
11/23/09 07:24 PM
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Well maybe a Cat Moth is long overdue for those of us who dont want to climb the steep learning curve.... stretch a pair of Moth hulls and bolt on crossbeams... hmmm thats an idea!

Re: Annual cost comparison between makes [Re: pilgrim] #197431
11/24/09 12:18 AM
11/24/09 12:18 AM
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Hobart, Tasmania, Oz.
Dazz Offline
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well it made me smile anyway....


C2 AUS 222 by Goodall design
"Darph Bobo"
Re: Annual cost comparison between makes [Re: Dazz] #197432
11/24/09 12:47 AM
11/24/09 12:47 AM
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taipanfc Offline
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Lol. How not to get into a moth it looks like. Did that the first day, then all ok.

Re: Annual cost comparison between makes [Re: taipanfc] #197440
11/24/09 03:34 AM
11/24/09 03:34 AM
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Hamburg
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Originally Posted by taipanfc
And yes Wouter, we can't launch through the surf, but majority of people don't.


Are you sure? Maight be different on other continents.

Cheers,

Klaus

Re: Annual cost comparison between makes [Re: Dazz] #197660
11/26/09 10:51 AM
11/26/09 10:51 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,037
Central California
ejpoulsen Offline
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Central California
Originally Posted by Dazz
Well here is an embarrassing comparison.....

http://www.assassinmoth.com/

ASSASSIN RACING GRS - Full complete boat including Assassin/Holroyd Carbon Foils - $15200 NZD (approx $10200 USD and $7200 Euro)

Also Includes FREIGHT to all major airports worldwide *

these bad boys will give your F16 a sound flogging in anything over 5 knots of breeze.

for bang for buck I don't think the current foiling moths can beat frown


Former F16 sailor, Paul K. here in California jumped over to a moth. On a reach we can't touch them; around a course is very dependent on conditions and skill. Based on my chats with Paul, yes, the initial purchase price may be lower, but the cost of ownership may not be so different...

Also, keep in mind that the Assassin is the super bargain basement Moth out there right now. If you look at the cost of the Mach and others, you start heading toward A-class costs. I think Paul has a Prowler, but I'm not possitive; anyway, it is a beautiful and expensive sculpture of clear-coated carbon.

For example--$16,995 (w/shipping):
http://www.opensailingusa.com/Boats/Prowler/Pricing.html


Eric Poulsen
A-class USA 203
Ultimate 20
Central California
Re: Annual cost comparison between makes [Re: ejpoulsen] #197664
11/26/09 10:59 AM
11/26/09 10:59 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
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Happy Thanksgiving! Any regrets in switching to the A class? Pleasant surprises?


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Annual cost comparison between makes [Re: pgp] #197667
11/26/09 11:06 AM
11/26/09 11:06 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,037
Central California
ejpoulsen Offline
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Central California
Originally Posted by pgp
Happy Thanksgiving! Any regrets in switching to the A class? Pleasant surprises?


I prefer sailing the F16 but I didn't have anyone to sail with/against, so I felt my progress was stagnating. The A-class sailors in California are very good--world champions, olympians, pro sailors, nautical and aerospace engineers, members of the BOR 90 team, etc. So the main thing is that I'm learning a lot.


Eric Poulsen
A-class USA 203
Ultimate 20
Central California
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