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Re: Area C Qualifier is cancelled due to lack of interest [Re: Jake] #216736
07/29/10 06:23 PM
07/29/10 06:23 PM
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scooby_simon Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake

NOTHING is more fair than sailors sailing boats that are setup identically. Nothing pits sailor skill against sailor skill in the same way. It's a different, and IMHO, the most humbling and pure way to compete. How you setup your diamond wires does not make you a better or more deserving sailor.


Jake,

BUT boat tuning for crew weight is critical. Is it fair if the lightweights get an overpowered boat; the heavies get an underpowered boat and one team gets a boat that is set up properly?

I think the event is a fine idea; but struggle to see the fairness of tuning the boats to suit only one crew weight.


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

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Re: Area C Qualifier is cancelled due to lack of interest [Re: pgp] #216738
07/29/10 06:35 PM
07/29/10 06:35 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
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GISCO Offline
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t,s really sad to see the lack of interest in the multihull championship ( Alter Cup). The main reason for the formation of this event was to show, the multihull sailors and at that time USYRU that we were part of the total sailing community. We use the same rules and race the same as monohulls, but just use another type of craft. So, to not appear that we were different the event was patterned after the existing national ladder championships. 10 boats and 10 area teams with no petitions.

I truly appreciate the sailors, volunteers and suppliers that have kept this event going for 20+ years. I just hope the current apathy doesn't portend it's demise.

It has always been an uphill battle to get multihulls integrated with USSA. Thank goodness for for John's involvment, but it takes more than one.

Re: Area C Qualifier is cancelled due to lack of interest [Re: GISCO] #216739
07/29/10 06:39 PM
07/29/10 06:39 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Gordon

What would it take to get A class Sailors to participate in the handicap qualifier regatta?


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Area C Qualifier is cancelled due to lack of interest [Re: Mark Schneider] #216740
07/29/10 06:48 PM
07/29/10 06:48 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Hold an Alter Cup on A cats or some other solo boat.

The two up thing might be what's keeping the A cat guys away.

Has the Alter Cup ever been held on a -one up- type boat?

(H17, Wave, A cat, Nacra 5.5 Uni)


Blade F16
#777
Re: Area C Qualifier is cancelled due to lack of interest [Re: pgp] #216741
07/29/10 06:51 PM
07/29/10 06:51 PM
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Wilmington,NC
Dlennard Offline
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It seems that a lot of regattas now are just having less attendance which can be some of the problem. Both sailors having to be US Sailing members also adds cost and may deter some. If you sail with a lot of sailors in your area, you know which ones come out on top more often and you have never beat so why spend the extra money on US Sailing membership just to go to a regatta. The Alter cup is a week long event and getting time off can be a problem so why go to the qualifier and not just a local regatta that does not need US Sailing membership. I go to the qualifier because it is in an off time of the year and is a lot of fun and the host has kept the costs low. If the qualifier has another regatta as a conflict and the cost to attend is high I don't think I would go. I don't really care to go to the Alter cup but I do like going to a fun local regatta. I sailed in a qualifier before a Hobie 18 nationals to get practice for the Hobie event and was not a US Sailing member and did not get scored because I just did not want to spend another 40.00. I almost did not go to our qualifier last year because my teammate could not come, so I sailed with my super crew (wife) and had to buy her a US sailing membership on the way to the regatta. It is just a waste of money for her to be a member when she sails a few regattas a year and would never go to an Alter cup.
Maybe waive the fee for crew, or both, for the qualifier to see if that gets attendance up.

Re: Area C Qualifier is cancelled due to lack of interest [Re: Dlennard] #216744
07/29/10 07:18 PM
07/29/10 07:18 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 917
Issaquah, WA, USA
H17cat Offline
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Issaquah, WA, USA
Golden Anchor Membership thru the Multihull Council, rates are lower for US SAILING membership, Youth 21 or under, or full time students, $20, Individual, $50, and family $75.
Caleb Tarleton, MHC

Re: Area C Qualifier is cancelled due to lack of interest [Re: H17cat] #216745
07/29/10 07:38 PM
07/29/10 07:38 PM
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Posts: 52
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oxj Offline
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I also disagree that the event is dying. In my (limited) experience with the finals (I've done the last five) I think that this year's event was by far the most competitive as far as level of competition. It was a great competition.

I view the qualifier as another local event that I like to do (in spite of not being a fan of Portsmouth racing) and I don't really even think about the finals when I schedule it in. For us in D south it is at a great time of the year and without conflicts so it is kind of a no brainer.

I plan on attending our qualifiers, but not the finals. I am not a fan of the new four day format. I think a major championship should be over five days, especially when traveling across the country to attend. I understand that there might be cost issues involved for the hosts, but there are great costs involved for the sailors as well and another day of lodging is a small percentage of the overall costs.

Didn't mean to derail the topic. Which is really about drumming up more interest to the regional events. So are there ways to get people to think about it more as just another great regatta on the schedule instead of an 'added' event?

Last edited by oxj; 07/29/10 07:39 PM.
Re: Area C Qualifier is cancelled due to lack of interest [Re: mikeborden] #216746
07/29/10 07:45 PM
07/29/10 07:45 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 117
Northern VA
bsquared Offline
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Northern VA
Didn't sign up due to a last-minute plea to fill in at the Special Olympics (AND tow a double-stacked 16 rig over). Have to say we had some great, fun, mostly one-design racing at SO's last year, with 20-year old 16s duking it out with new boats.

I'm not real interested in going to the finals. That makes the Alter Cup regional just another race, and one that I know will have a low turnout. For better or worse, requiring membership for both skippers and crew keeps people away. I assume the old method of only scoring USS members for the Qualifier while scoring all racers for the regatta is no longer valid?

Re: Area C Qualifier is cancelled due to lack of interest [Re: oxj] #216748
07/29/10 08:54 PM
07/29/10 08:54 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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"not a big fan of Portsmouth Racing"

Well.... I hear that a lot!.... I don't think its particularly about the "rating" system... I suspect you are not a big fan of HANDICAP RACING... period.

Interesting that the Brits, EU's and Aussie's don't have nearly as much of an issue with HANDICAP RACING as us Yanks.

Nevertheless... you put the regatta on your schedule!
You and Lennard both describe the qualifier as a good regional regatta that ranks high on your regatta to do list.

In Area C where we have consolidated into viable one design fleets (see post above for current fleets) with enough OD racing to fill a season.... the Area C regatta has NO constituency.

Personally, I have supported the Area C qualifier because this event was the most competitive event the dead boat society owners could aspire to and the event was the essential mission statement of CRAC. (Disclaimer... I sailed a variety of dead boats... (Darts, Mystere's Tornado's) The Area C events I have organized or coordinated or pimped attempted to put on a first rate regatta to meet the open class niche AND draw in the one design racers. As time marched on... the dead boats no longer race. I know of TWO dead boat owners left....(Supercat 22 and Prindle 19 MX plus some orphan Tigers at Sandy Hook, NJ. CRAC is just a paper organization with a bank account.... Slowly trying to dissolve into the background.

I continue to support the Area Championship for two reasons.
1) Our branch of the sport MUST HAVE a niche within the Sailing Establishment. We must have a first rate presence in ALL ASPECTS of the sport.... That would be Junior Sailing, Junior Olympic Development, Adult One Design Championships, US Sailing Adult Championships, International Event Championships. If we don't play ... we can't expect anyone to waste any of their time on us. I believe that our survival depends on our being full members of the local, regional and national sailing scene. The days of doing everything on our own are history. Multihull racers represent real expertise because our sailors have worked their butt off to become expert Race officers, judges and race officials... Hell at the JO's.. the OA had to scramble to pull together a jury and the Div 11 multihull sailors stepped up and ran the process flawlessly.... (given the hard butts of parents and coaches from SSA and AYC..... this is high praise). We also turn out for the big events... See the F18's at the SF NOODS and at the Newport Regatta this summer. So, This is the real politik reason!

2) I believe that we are NOT a Balkanized collection of children sailing in one design classes... Instead... we are a multihull community. If the community is to have any vitality... then it must have a common interest and goals and I believe that a regional championship between the one design classes has enormous potential. The one design classes should be able to support a Junior program, a Special Olympics program, and a Regional championship in their area. (This is my Squishy Kum Bay Yah reason for supporting Area Championships).

I have made the case to the powers that be that the the future of the Area Championships should be decided by the national Class's. If your national class makes the regional championship participation a priority, The Regional championships can succeed.

Otherwise, we should scrap the Multihull championships altogether. We could simply get in line for a turn at the US Sailing Mens single handed Championships... (Lasers, Finns, Sunfish, A cats, Hobie 17's F16/17, Moths Contenders) etc etc.

I could argue that Gordon Isco's goal of getting mulithull acceptance in 2010 would be best served if the Mens single handed championship was contested on A cats!


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Area C Qualifier is cancelled due to lack of interest [Re: Mark Schneider] #216749
07/29/10 09:11 PM
07/29/10 09:11 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 894
Branford, CT
rhodysail Offline
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Maybe itís time to turn the Alter Cup into a Championship of Champions type event instead of a ladder event. Portsmouth racing has declined considerably in the last few years and I think there are just not as many people who can get excited about racing Portsmouth these days.
Most of the sailors attending AC qualifiers donít expect to qualify for the championship. From my limited experience in the past people went to the AC qualifiers because it was just another event on the schedule. But that was back when people were actually going to handicap events. This doesnít happen all that much any more.


Re: Area C Qualifier is cancelled due to lack of interest [Re: Mark Schneider] #216750
07/29/10 10:34 PM
07/29/10 10:34 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Gordon

What would it take to get A class Sailors to participate in the handicap qualifier regatta?


Poop on a stick man! We had a-cats at our qualifier for the last four years.


Jake Kohl
Re: Area C Qualifier is cancelled due to lack of interest [Re: Jake] #216761
07/30/10 07:16 AM
07/30/10 07:16 AM
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pgp Offline
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D south as well.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Area C Qualifier is cancelled due to lack of interest [Re: pgp] #216762
07/30/10 07:29 AM
07/30/10 07:29 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

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Seems John and I are thinking similarly -- put more emphasis on the qualifiers, and have 10 teams.
I do not understand the problem of finances Jake brought up. When I was participating our area org. paid for the entry fee, and at the host club they provided housing, i.e., US Sailings Champion of Champions.
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
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Re: Area C Qualifier is cancelled due to lack of interest [Re: RickWhite] #216763
07/30/10 07:32 AM
07/30/10 07:32 AM
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pgp Offline
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I'm not quite following you. Can you 'splain it a little more?


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Area C Qualifier is cancelled due to lack of interest [Re: RickWhite] #216765
07/30/10 08:01 AM
07/30/10 08:01 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Rick

Seems like there are three or four options proposed

Do Nothing.... The championship is fine... Area's participate if they want to by holding and racing a qualifier. No worries if the Area's drop out of qualifiers.

Tweak the rules to get into the championship that puts more emphasis on the qualifier... Still a 20 boat regatta with 10 Champions/Petitions and 10 qualifiers.
John Williams proposal.

Turn back the clock... It's a ladder event championship.... Race your qualifier and go to the national championship.
If 20 teams are needed... top two go?. Rick White's Proposal

Champion of Champions The area qualifiers are just another regatta and no one participates to get to the championship. Drop em! Just award the 20 slots to One Design NA winners and petitions and drop the qualifiers all together. Bob Merrick's Proposal.

Shift the emphasis to the One Design Classes to support and nominate the sailors. Each class with a NA's sends a rep. One Design Classes get behind the Area Qualifier as an inter class championship event and exchange a OD regatta for the Qualifier..... Schneider's pie in the sky proposal.

What else?



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Area C Qualifier is cancelled due to lack of interest [Re: Mark Schneider] #216766
07/30/10 08:40 AM
07/30/10 08:40 AM
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pgp Offline
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I think we are fractionalized, Balkanized, whatever. A big party somewhere (I'm thinking New Orleans or Chicago areas) would help develop a sense of community. USS is all we have, so for better or worse, it should be under their banner.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Area C Qualifier is cancelled due to lack of interest [Re: pgp] #216767
07/30/10 08:42 AM
07/30/10 08:42 AM
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I'd participate (F qualifier) for the fun of it. Ours is typically in Houston. 780 miles one way for a two-day event.

So here's a question from an OD racer. Texas is the only place where much Portsmouth racing is still going on in our Area, I dont own a boat I feel will compete. Seems like you better be sailing a 64 or better DPN boat or the bad air at every start would be a hell of a hole to climb out of...or do the DPN really, truely reflect the difference? I wasn't racing prior to 2005. Were there more than one DPN fleet/start? i.e. fast (w/SPI) & slower fleet, 70 something and up? I assume that era is when most of the "slow boat" DPN's were established. There are a few Hobie sailors that have the skills to beat John Tomko but may not have the boat to do it on? Can't pile on the moniker of Area F qualifier to a Hobie Points regatta any more, so it seems having (10) additional slots for at large is a logical way to go.

FWIW from Mid-West Hobie land.


John H16, H14
Re: Area C Qualifier is cancelled due to lack of interest [Re: Mark Schneider] #216768
07/30/10 08:44 AM
07/30/10 08:44 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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South Carolina
If you guys want to redesign the event, please consider joining and participating on the Multihull Committee to have the conversation in an open and meaningful manner...I mean that sincerely. You can affect change there. Otherwise, you're just complaining and whining to an already overworked, and small, group of folks who are putting in earnest effort in the event for the betterment of our sport and not personal gain.

The view from within the organization and from within the event is very different than what's being portrayed here. Many of the negative comments and the comments demanding "change" are coming from people that have not only not participated in the championship in years but haven't attended a local qualifier in a very long time. Granted, those that aren't attending the qualifiers are the people that we need to figure out how to fix things for...but, at the same time, there have been a lot of improvements enacted in the last five years - how can you say the system's broken if you haven't tried it?

I challenge you this; participate in the qualifiers - help promote, help organize. Help us figure out how to get people to the qualifiers. Make an effort to understand the challenges and the problems with such an event. Then let's talk seriously about how to make it even better. Otherwise, you're complaining about the way a new car rides by having seen it from the outside when it passed you on freeway.


Jake Kohl
Re: Area C Qualifier is cancelled due to lack of interest [Re: Jake] #216769
07/30/10 08:51 AM
07/30/10 08:51 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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+1


David Ingram
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Re: Area C Qualifier is cancelled due to lack of interest [Re: Jake] #216771
07/30/10 08:55 AM
07/30/10 08:55 AM
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pgp Offline
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Why not bring the multihull committee out into the light? Rick could probably arrange something if there was any real interest.

I'm not quite sure what committee your referring to.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

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