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Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: maritimesailor] #220881
10/05/10 11:52 AM
10/05/10 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by maritimesailor
Stupid question, would this be a "mandatory mixed" or "can be mixed"? I really don't know for sure, but in mixed tennis (listed in the ISAF submission as an example) can the team be all guys even though the event is mixed? Wondering how they envision "mixed" in a sailing event, if it HAS to be mixed, their will be huge hunt for skilled female crews and skippers.... and a lot of established all male teams would have to break up... not saying this is good or bad, just wondering.


"Open" means just that; 2 F, 2 M or 1 F and 1 F

Mixed means 1 M and one F.



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Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Timbo] #220882
10/05/10 11:57 AM
10/05/10 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Timbo
I'll bet if we could get some of their top skippers out on fast spinnaker cats in a good breeze, they would think twice about getting back on a 420, Lark, or what ever other dinghy they are used to.


It wouldn't even take a good breeze, Timbo. And you're right... but collegiate sailing programs lack a major piece of the puzzle - money. Switching (or adding) multihulls takes a good bit of $$$ I would suspect, because more than one college has to adopt this at the same time... or else you'd have no one to race against, right?


Jay

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: waterbug_wpb] #220887
10/05/10 12:38 PM
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All those Ivy League schools up north, and the Navy Academy, have plenty of money, start with them and the others can buy cats instead of more (slow) dinghys as they replenish their fleets.


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Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Timbo] #220896
10/05/10 01:35 PM
10/05/10 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Timbo
He'll have to "learn" to race Lasers and 420's sometime between now and then.


When Caroline Brouwer switched to a Laser she said it was easy because there's a lot of time to think smile smile smile


Luiz
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: rexdenton] #220900
10/05/10 02:47 PM
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Wow!!! Based on what Rex posted above, the IOC actually GETS it! Everything in that post reflects discussions that have been ongoing on this forum (and elsewhere) forever.

What a breath of fresh air. Hopefully, USSA and ISAF have the brains to act appropriately before it's too late.

Mike

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: brucat] #220927
10/05/10 05:26 PM
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This is all great but can some one suggest a type of multihull that will fit not only the ISAF agenda but will also meet the needs of the IOC...And please no hobie 16`s, the aim is to go forward and increase audience numbers to do this the cat has to be modern in looks and performance, also be aware that the good old US of A isnt the only country on the planet and the choise must be available to many other countries etc.

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Devon] #221072
10/06/10 07:24 PM
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I do not know what boat they will pick, but it does seem that it will go back to being the only open class if it get reinstated. There is definately strong resistance from the F-18 fleet for it being chosen. Hobie wants the Tiger to be the boat of choice which would give it a market for the now somewhat obsolete platform. While there are many Tigers still racing in the F-18 class, the platform has been surpassed by many other newer platforms. Maybe that is the way to go or maybe the Tornado is the way. You all know my preference, but powers much greater than I will make this choice. If it is a choice between having the Tiger as the boat in the Olympics or no multihull in the games, then I am for the Tiger as hard as it is to state that.


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Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: windswept] #221079
10/06/10 07:53 PM
10/06/10 07:53 PM
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Tom

I would think a F16 type boat or a hobie 16 with chute would be optimal choice for a mixed team. You want the fig leaf of flexibility to have woman on the front of the boat and a male driving.... if you go with an F18... it will be strictly female helms...


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Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Mark Schneider] #221100
10/07/10 01:22 AM
10/07/10 01:22 AM
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Western Australia
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The American NA loves stars! I doubt if there are many stars in the pacific or African nations..

Fact is NAs are dominated by old super blobs.. What do blobs sail?

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Stewart] #221104
10/07/10 02:28 AM
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The F16 is a great solution for a womens boat, but as a mixed class I see one very big issue: crew weight.

An Olympic level team could be competitive on a tornado at 140kg and as we have seen in all classes that get Olympic status, the optimum weight gets lower as teams work out how to sail the boats better.

The 49er, laser, laser radial and yngling all saw considerable weight drops once the classes became Olympic. The same will happen with a multihull.

So if Carolijn and Liz are competitive now at 119kg, what will be the optimum team weight for a mixed crew F16 Olympic class??


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Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: macca] #221106
10/07/10 03:32 AM
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Probably quite a lot higher as the F16 platforms carry weight very well ( Viper for example ) and I would suspect the male crew will be exactly that, ie doing all the work on the boat like launching chutes etc where male strength and speed will be needed + that extra weight out on the wire will give extra righting moment.

My guess around the 130- 140 kilos which is exactly the perceived average weight for humans 60 - 65 Female and 75 - 80 male. The F16 boats tick more than a few boxes.

Macca for far tooooo long you have been obsessed with boat weight and crew weight.

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: waynemarlow] #221107
10/07/10 03:49 AM
10/07/10 03:49 AM
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Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Probably quite a lot higher as the F16 platforms carry weight very well ( Viper for example ) and I would suspect the male crew will be exactly that, ie doing all the work on the boat like launching chutes etc where male strength and speed will be needed + that extra weight out on the wire will give extra righting moment.

My guess around the 130- 140 kilos which is exactly the perceived average weight for humans 60 - 65 Female and 75 - 80 male. The F16 boats tick more than a few boxes.

Macca for far tooooo long you have been obsessed with boat weight and crew weight.


Hey genius: Carolijn and Liz are competitive on a VIPER now at 119kg and if the boat goes Olympic you will only see that weight go LOWER, and for sure not 20kg higher!!

If a team on a 20ft Tornado was competitive at 140kg, its simply not going to happen that the same weight will be suitable on a 16ft boat.

Like I said: F16 is a great boat for a Womens class at the games, but as a mixed boat its simply not going to work. Thats not the boats fault, its just not the right boat for a mixed team at that level. (unless you want midgets sailing...)


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Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: macca] #221119
10/07/10 06:45 AM
10/07/10 06:45 AM
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Macca, I think the F16 could at a pinch be a Female and or mixed at a pinch.. But its not a class the ISAF would want. They fell for mantra sold to them by monkey. SMODS are the only true path..

But I do recall Elvstom and his daughter were competitive on the pinhead T.


Better would be IOC makes a ruling all classes need to be able to be picked up and carried by the sailors.


Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: macca] #221122
10/07/10 07:01 AM
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The F16 is more than capable of supporting mixed, anyhow all the teams would be mixed but yes they would all be midgets, or asians . no offence to the asians but they are a smaller race and would dominate those events. 16 ft is way way too small a cat and would be less spectator and exiting than the Tornado, it has no foiling capabilities, and the current number of manufacturers and the class development will halt! Just like it did in the T`s for decades, forget the F16.. The real problem here is multihulls and sailing need a real jolt and it must be done using a boat with those capabilities EG bigger and better than the tornado and at the moment the only cat that i can see that meets those requirments is the carbon nacra! And it should be a all male boat, sorry girls but F16`s would suit a all girl team better. At this stage i believe that the ISAF is ****ing up badly again by making cats mixed

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Stewart] #221124
10/07/10 07:30 AM
10/07/10 07:30 AM
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Maryland
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Originally Posted by Stewart
They fell for mantra sold to them by monkey. SMODS are the only true path..

AHPC Viper, Hobie Wildcat, and Nacra Infusion have applications on the November ISAF annual meeting agenda for class recognition. Hobie Tiger and Nacra SL (16) are already recognized by them.

F16 is also on the agenda for class recognition. F18 & A-Cats are already recognized formula classes but I agree that a formula class is an unlikely candidate for the Olympics. The SMOD idea is to reduce equipment variables.

So if it was an F16 and the selection had to be made during the next year, the platform would be the Viper. However, that does not preclude another existing or new (there is a rumor) F16 manufacturer from seeking its own ISAF class approval at next year's annual meeting.


Kris Hathaway
Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Devon] #221127
10/07/10 07:44 AM
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No matter what cat is selected for the olympics the platform will dictate the competitive weight range.

Using one of the Formula rule is a bad idea as it will have the effect of increasing the cost by a huge factor as each team/manufacturer will spend a fortune developing olympic proto boats

Using a one design from a formula class is also a bad idea: this has the possible effect of having the selected model take over the whole class, I believe that what happened with the Tornado in the past.

So what do you want in an olympic platform? Two crew, three sails, modern design, fast and spectacular. One design, ideally with boats provided for the event. So, what platform could fit these requirements?

16':

The venerable H16 with a spi is a possibility. Everyone knows what a H16 is, you can find one everywhere in the world, they are cheap and the class is used to provided boats for events. Downside: the NA class don't like the spi, the weight range is light light light, and albeit spectacular sometimes the H16 is technically a slow dinosaur.

Viper: As I said I don't like the idea, as the Viper is a F16

Spitfire: Nice boat, still evolving, but the weight range is too low IMHO.

18':

As I said before, bad idea to select a F18, even an older design. There are not a lot of 18 footer that are not F18 these days...

20':

Tornado one design: Known quantity, spectacular boat. But it looks dated with its pointy bows and centerboards. The best bet really to stay olympic.

Go to something new and exciting (Macca will like me know) like the Nacra F20. This boat is spectacular, extremely quick, highly technical and one design. Probably the same cost envelope as a Tornado.


Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: pepin] #221131
10/07/10 08:17 AM
10/07/10 08:17 AM
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Itís ISAF and our own hang ups that are the issue here. We are killing ourselves with this drivel.
The IOC does not place restrictions on what can compete etc. Do you think all the bob sleds, or rowing shells , or even shoes are 1 design.

We are in danger of losing all sailing from the Olympics because it has no viewership and is expensive to produce.

Any properly constructed box rule can limit to some extent the expense. Even in a completely open environment the boat is only a small portion of the cost of a campaign anyway if you want to be competitive.

Either way the boat has to be flashy and we have to get young hot bodies out on the course. (leaves me out but that is not all unfortunately)

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Matt M] #221135
10/07/10 08:35 AM
10/07/10 08:35 AM
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Matt, the Tornado was a very tight rule that effectively limited the development costs to gear and sails. The platform for all intents was one design and one manufacturer.

Yet the development costs to run a Tornado at a top level were in excess of 100k EURO a year, its totally insane but its also the reality.

We need a one design boat for the games, simple as that. With a box rule you will always have massive costs and to be honest: does the racing get better because one team was able to develop a better boat than the rest??


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Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Matt M] #221137
10/07/10 08:36 AM
10/07/10 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Matt M
Either way the boat has to be flashy and we have to get young hot bodies out on the course.
Give them all Falcon t-Shirts and you have the flashy bit covered smile

Re: Multihulls and the Olympics [Re: Matt M] #221142
10/07/10 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Matt M
Itís ISAF and our own hang ups that are the issue here. We are killing ourselves with this drivel.
The IOC does not place restrictions on what can compete etc. Do you think all the bob sleds, or rowing shells , or even shoes are 1 design.

We are in danger of losing all sailing from the Olympics because it has no viewership and is expensive to produce.

Any properly constructed box rule can limit to some extent the expense. Even in a completely open environment the boat is only a small portion of the cost of a campaign anyway if you want to be competitive.

Either way the boat has to be flashy and we have to get young hot bodies out on the course. (leaves me out but that is not all unfortunately)


And cost and competition is the real rub here. IOC wants an inexpensive, widely available platform that is exciting. Without taking a position, this language logically means the F18 or H16. The F16 seems logical too, but the world fleets are rather small, at least from what I can see around here. F16, like the H16 may also favor small crew/skipper combos.

For the F18, then, it sort of fits. The box manufacturing model of aluminum and fiberglass (mostly) was put together to minimize cost. The question is whether or not IAF18 governance is appropriately thoughtful and empowered to protect the box rule such that F18 could fares more like the laser and less like the Tornado class if it is ultimately selected. (i.e. what can IAF18 [or any selected box class]do to prevent a mfr 'arms race' to protect themselves.) This is what IAF18/F16 should be discussing with ISAF and consider internally, rather than reacting to what happened to the Tornado as a part of the history of the boat. Let's be proactive as well as practical when discussing these options.

There are a 2 plausible options for any F18 selection (again, I am not advocating anything here):
1)Go with Tiger as the one-design. I have seen some fast Tigers beat more modern boats. Ask Mischa Heemskirk about the Canadian Nationals.
2)Go with an Alter Cup style bid by the manufacturers.

IMHO the N20 at $35-40K, and with all that carbon tweaking and foils, etc. is an IOC non-starter, because the IOC hates equipment being exploited as a factor in the competition.

Last edited by rexdenton; 10/07/10 08:53 AM.

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