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Re: See the F20c in person [Re: mikekrantz] #221892
10/18/10 11:56 AM
10/18/10 11:56 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 302
Daytona Beach Florida
O
orphan Offline
enthusiast
orphan  Offline
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O

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 302
Daytona Beach Florida
Your sponsor is a little understated. Ya think smirk

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: See the F20c in person [Re: orphan] #221895
10/18/10 12:13 PM
10/18/10 12:13 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 133
The Netherlands
Kennethsf Offline
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Kennethsf  Offline
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The Netherlands
Originally Posted by orphan
Your sponsor is a little understated. Ya think smirk

can hardly tell who's sponsering... smile

the pictures are great btw

Last edited by Kennethsf; 10/18/10 12:14 PM.
Re: See the F20c in person [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #221901
10/18/10 12:39 PM
10/18/10 12:39 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Why are there F-16 sailors chafing at the bit to give him a hard time.


Really?


I'm boatless.
Re: See the F20c in person [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #221902
10/18/10 12:42 PM
10/18/10 12:42 PM
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pgp Offline
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"Why are there F-16 sailors chafing at the bit to give him a hard time."

Pay back.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: See the F20c in person [Re: pgp] #221920
10/18/10 02:01 PM
10/18/10 02:01 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,222
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Sorry, I hadn't been on the f-16 forum and didn't realize he had all of y'all's panties in a bunch. I hope it stays over there from here on out, but I doubt it.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: See the F20c in person [Re: pgp] #221922
10/18/10 02:02 PM
10/18/10 02:02 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Australia
Originally Posted by pgp
"Why are there F-16 sailors chafing at the bit to give him a hard time."

Pay back.


Maybe it's time they grew up...


________________________
http://aus300.blogspot.com
Re: See the F20c in person [Re: macca] #221926
10/18/10 02:13 PM
10/18/10 02:13 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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I don't want to continue to prolong this fight - but making a quality symmetric curved foil is incredibly more difficult than making a straight one. The tooling alone requires a lot more material, engineering (with quality software tools), and time. The foils on the F20c are truly a piece of art. They're very very light (they float!) and they're obviously very strong. I've not yet seen an early generation a-cat with curved boards that doesn't have some sort of issues with the fit/function of the curved boards in the trunks either. These boards fit very well in their trunks. They come up so easily (and float), you have to watch that you don't hit your forehead when raising the board because of the radius that it travels!

The fact that they can make these boards available within 20% the price of an F18 straight board is pretty good.


Jake Kohl
Re: See the F20c in person [Re: macca] #221927
10/18/10 02:18 PM
10/18/10 02:18 PM
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pgp Offline
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"They"?


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: See the F20c in person [Re: Jake] #221931
10/18/10 02:44 PM
10/18/10 02:44 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
pitchpoledave Offline
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Macca didn't you say that there is a twist in the foils as well? Can you post some close up shots of them?

Re: See the F20c in person [Re: pitchpoledave] #221933
10/18/10 03:01 PM
10/18/10 03:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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Australia
Its a secret smile

But I will see what I can find, there is nothing on my laptop but maybe, just maybe I can take a photo next time i have a board in my hands.


________________________
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Re: See the F20c in person [Re: macca] #221939
10/18/10 03:36 PM
10/18/10 03:36 PM
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+31NL
Tony_F18 Offline
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Has there been any on the water research of how boards actually behave during sailing in terms of twist and curve?
I saw a wildcat board a while ago which got a permanent curve after a few months of sailing (board was always used on one side).
What about making a small peekhole just in front of the daggerboard well and mount a gopro-like camera?
Could give some interesting information.

Re: See the F20c in person [Re: Acat230] #221946
10/18/10 04:27 PM
10/18/10 04:27 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,844
42.904444 N; 88.008586 W
Todd_Sails Offline
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42.904444 N; 88.008586 W
'There is no Nacra F-20C with straight boards or straight canted boards to compare to my knowledge.'

I remember reading a thread and post by Macca that they built two prototypes, straight and curved boards. He had stated that in all the conditions the curved boards were faster. Right?

Anyways, cool boat, continuing to 'push the envelope'.


F-18 Infusion
#626- SOLD it!

'Long Live the Legend of Chris Kyle'
Re: See the F20c in person [Re: Kennethsf] #221951
10/18/10 05:24 PM
10/18/10 05:24 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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Portland, Maine
Originally Posted by Kennethsf
Originally Posted by orphan
Your sponsor is a little understated. Ya think smirk

can hardly tell who's sponsering... smile

the pictures are great btw


Note that Mike (the owner of said F20C) is also the Zhik NA distributor. So he's sponsoring himself - and does a damn fine job of it I may add.

Re: See the F20c in person [Re: ThunderMuffin] #221954
10/18/10 06:07 PM
10/18/10 06:07 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
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Michigan
No doubt. Gets to write the expense of the boat off too I think.

Who did the graphics?

Re: See the F20c in person [Re: Jake] #221958
10/18/10 06:41 PM
10/18/10 06:41 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Asuncion, Paraguay
Originally Posted by Jake
...making a quality symmetric curved foil is incredibly more difficult than making a straight one. The tooling alone requires a lot more material, engineering (with quality software tools), and time. The foils on the F20c are truly a piece of art. They're very very light (they float!) and they're obviously very strong...


From my limited experience:

- An asymetrical foil is slightly more difficult/expensive to make than a symetrical one. The same goes for its trunk.
- A curved foil is a little more difficult/expensive to make than a straight one, if built from female molds. The same goes for the trunk. Making the plugs and molds is obviously more expensive, though.
- A curved foil built over CNC machined foam can be extremely expensive, although easier to laminate, if the reinforcements are smartly designed.
- The number of localized reinforcement layers in a lifting foil increase as the vertical load grows as % of displacement.

Each of my boat's straight assymetric boards was designed to lift 50% of displacement, which is probably close enough to the F20c foils, from what I saw on the video.

My foils were built about eight years ago in a small Brazilian shipyard in foam/glass/estervinylic - and they also float. In view of that, the fact that the F20c carbon boards can float is meaningless.

If they are building the F20c foils from female molds as we did, its price depends on the materials, weight and number of layers, labour following the number of layers.

It seems reasonable to charge 20% over the price of a straight symetric foil of similar build (female moulds, same materials, same technique).

However, if they are not building over CNC machined foam, the prices should be a lot lower. I hope this is what is going on, for the quoted prices are outrageous.

Just my opinion, of course.


Luiz
Re: See the F20c in person [Re: Luiz] #221959
10/18/10 06:51 PM
10/18/10 06:51 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 712
mikekrantz Offline OP
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The graphic "design" was done by the design staff at Zhik working from a line drawing of the boat.

Fellow catsailor Jake at Green Room Graphics supplied the vinyls for the main and jib, I used a local source for the hull wrap, and the spin was done at Performance Sails.

Re: See the F20c in person [Re: Jake] #221960
10/18/10 07:01 PM
10/18/10 07:01 PM
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Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Northfield Mn
Originally Posted by Jake
I don't want to continue to prolong this fight - but making a quality symmetric curved foil is incredibly more difficult than making a straight one. The tooling alone requires a lot more material, engineering (with quality software tools), and time.


I don't understand this. Yeah you'll have a bit more aluminum(or whatever metal they make molds out of), and a bit more time into drawing it, but 4 axis machining is nothing new. The actual laminating tools themselves can't be that different. You will pay a premium for the machining as not every hick machine shop with cnc capacity can do it.

I realize you're covering the cost of all the R+D to come up with a final product with all of subsequent parts that come out that mold as well.

What could be more complicated about laying up material in a curve, vs in a straight line?

I honestly know next to nothing about boat construction, so there's my disclaimer.


I'm boatless.
Re: See the F20c in person [Re: Karl_Brogger] #221961
10/18/10 07:12 PM
10/18/10 07:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Originally Posted by Jake
I don't want to continue to prolong this fight - but making a quality symmetric curved foil is incredibly more difficult than making a straight one. The tooling alone requires a lot more material, engineering (with quality software tools), and time.


I don't understand this. Yeah you'll have a bit more aluminum(or whatever metal they make molds out of), and a bit more time into drawing it, but 4 axis machining is nothing new. The actual laminating tools themselves can't be that different. You will pay a premium for the machining as not every hick machine shop with cnc capacity can do it.

I realize you're covering the cost of all the R+D to come up with a final product with all of subsequent parts that come out that mold as well.

What could be more complicated about laying up material in a curve, vs in a straight line?

I honestly know next to nothing about boat construction, so there's my disclaimer.


Imagine the larger size of the machined plug required to make a curved board. The material between the curvature in the plugs has to be solid. The plugs are quite large this way. The molds will be much larger in comparison to a flat board so they have a flat surface on which to sit while being worked on. Rigidity is also quite important in any mold and it will require more consideration for the curved item. I wouldn't be surprised if the tooling cost for a curved board wasn't 3 or 4 times the cost of a straight board's tooling not considering the trunk.

These boards are also quite long. Considering how heavy the I20 boards are and the different kinds of loads the F20c boards are under, I think they're pretty marvelous.

OK, so floating isn't THAT special...but a board that can lift a 360lb boat and two sailors while under sailing load and still be light enough to easily float in water is pretty cool.


Jake Kohl
Re: See the F20c in person [Re: macca] #221962
10/18/10 07:14 PM
10/18/10 07:14 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
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catman  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
Wow. I ask a little question about the price of a board and......

How many of the people that are arguing with Macca are considering buying a F20c? If your not then.........

The reality is if I bought this boat I would get a second set of sails and a spare set of boards and rudders. That's the reality of racing a boat like this.

I think the boat from what I've seen and read is awesome. Nacra (and that means everyone involved) should be proud of what they created and I'm glad to be able to learn about it here.

It would be better without the background noise though.


Have Fun
Re: See the F20c in person [Re: Jake] #221966
10/18/10 07:38 PM
10/18/10 07:38 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Northfield Mn
Originally Posted by Jake
Imagine the larger size of the machined plug required to make a curved board. The material between the curvature in the plugs has to be solid.


No it doesn't! dowel it, bolt it together in parts. If machined well, it would need zero touch up work at the seams beyond the polishing that would have to be done regardless. If Uncle Larry can have a Cobra chassis built out of billet aluminum, something simple like a dagger mold can't be that bad, (size wise). And have a billet aluminum chassis that can hole up to a 600hp side oiler.

Quote
Rigidity is also quite important in any mold and it will require more consideration for the curved item. I wouldn't be surprised if the tooling cost for a curved board wasn't 3 or 4 times the cost of a straight board's tooling not considering the trunk.


The loads can't be that bad. When I bend up laminations for curved parts I do them on particle board molds and I'm putting a huge load on the mold when its getting clamped up. I'm not sure what it actually would be, but 20 pipe clamps cranked on hard is a whole mess of pressure. If particleboard can handle the loads, something stiff like aluminum, not being loaded up at all during layup should be fine. And if it is an issue, bolt or weld some bracing to it then bolt or weld it to a stand.

Quote
OK, so floating isn't THAT special...but a board that can lift a 360lb boat and two sailors while under sailing load and still be light enough to easily float in water is pretty cool.


That is cool. Especially when other boards (all manufactures) have had issues with normal boards breaking.


I'm boatless.
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