| Re: Multihulls and the Olympics
[Re: maritimesailor]
#220881 10/05/10 11:52 AM 10/05/10 11:52 AM |
Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,528 Looking for a Job, I got credi... scooby_simon Hull Flying, Snow Sliding.... |
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528 Looking for a Job, I got credi... | Stupid question, would this be a "mandatory mixed" or "can be mixed"? I really don't know for sure, but in mixed tennis (listed in the ISAF submission as an example) can the team be all guys even though the event is mixed? Wondering how they envision "mixed" in a sailing event, if it HAS to be mixed, their will be huge hunt for skilled female crews and skippers.... and a lot of established all male teams would have to break up... not saying this is good or bad, just wondering. "Open" means just that; 2 F, 2 M or 1 F and 1 F Mixed means 1 M and one F.
F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD I also talk sport here | | | Re: Multihulls and the Olympics
[Re: Timbo]
#220882 10/05/10 11:57 AM 10/05/10 11:57 AM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | I'll bet if we could get some of their top skippers out on fast spinnaker cats in a good breeze, they would think twice about getting back on a 420, Lark, or what ever other dinghy they are used to. It wouldn't even take a good breeze, Timbo. And you're right... but collegiate sailing programs lack a major piece of the puzzle - money. Switching (or adding) multihulls takes a good bit of $$$ I would suspect, because more than one college has to adopt this at the same time... or else you'd have no one to race against, right?
Jay
| | | Re: Multihulls and the Olympics
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#220887 10/05/10 12:38 PM 10/05/10 12:38 PM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | All those Ivy League schools up north, and the Navy Academy, have plenty of money, start with them and the others can buy cats instead of more (slow) dinghys as they replenish their fleets.
Blade F16 #777
| | | Re: Multihulls and the Olympics
[Re: Devon]
#221072 10/06/10 07:24 PM 10/06/10 07:24 PM |
Joined: Sep 2006 Posts: 613 New Hampshire, USA windswept
addict
|
addict
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613 New Hampshire, USA | I do not know what boat they will pick, but it does seem that it will go back to being the only open class if it get reinstated. There is definately strong resistance from the F-18 fleet for it being chosen. Hobie wants the Tiger to be the boat of choice which would give it a market for the now somewhat obsolete platform. While there are many Tigers still racing in the F-18 class, the platform has been surpassed by many other newer platforms. Maybe that is the way to go or maybe the Tornado is the way. You all know my preference, but powers much greater than I will make this choice. If it is a choice between having the Tiger as the boat in the Olympics or no multihull in the games, then I am for the Tiger as hard as it is to state that.
Tom Siders A-Cat USA-79 Tornado US775
| | | Re: Multihulls and the Olympics
[Re: windswept]
#221079 10/06/10 07:53 PM 10/06/10 07:53 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD | Tom
I would think a F16 type boat or a hobie 16 with chute would be optimal choice for a mixed team. You want the fig leaf of flexibility to have woman on the front of the boat and a male driving.... if you go with an F18... it will be strictly female helms...
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Multihulls and the Olympics
[Re: waynemarlow]
#221107 10/07/10 03:49 AM 10/07/10 03:49 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 1,021 Australia macca
old hand
|
old hand
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021 Australia | Probably quite a lot higher as the F16 platforms carry weight very well ( Viper for example ) and I would suspect the male crew will be exactly that, ie doing all the work on the boat like launching chutes etc where male strength and speed will be needed + that extra weight out on the wire will give extra righting moment.
My guess around the 130- 140 kilos which is exactly the perceived average weight for humans 60 - 65 Female and 75 - 80 male. The F16 boats tick more than a few boxes.
Macca for far tooooo long you have been obsessed with boat weight and crew weight. Hey genius: Carolijn and Liz are competitive on a VIPER now at 119kg and if the boat goes Olympic you will only see that weight go LOWER, and for sure not 20kg higher!! If a team on a 20ft Tornado was competitive at 140kg, its simply not going to happen that the same weight will be suitable on a 16ft boat. Like I said: F16 is a great boat for a Womens class at the games, but as a mixed boat its simply not going to work. Thats not the boats fault, its just not the right boat for a mixed team at that level. (unless you want midgets sailing...) | | | Re: Multihulls and the Olympics
[Re: Stewart]
#221124 10/07/10 07:30 AM 10/07/10 07:30 AM |
Joined: Oct 2002 Posts: 606 Maryland Kris Hathaway
addict
|
addict
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606 Maryland | They fell for mantra sold to them by monkey. SMODS are the only true path.. AHPC Viper, Hobie Wildcat, and Nacra Infusion have applications on the November ISAF annual meeting agenda for class recognition. Hobie Tiger and Nacra SL (16) are already recognized by them. F16 is also on the agenda for class recognition. F18 & A-Cats are already recognized formula classes but I agree that a formula class is an unlikely candidate for the Olympics. The SMOD idea is to reduce equipment variables. So if it was an F16 and the selection had to be made during the next year, the platform would be the Viper. However, that does not preclude another existing or new (there is a rumor) F16 manufacturer from seeking its own ISAF class approval at next year's annual meeting.
Kris Hathaway | | | Re: Multihulls and the Olympics
[Re: Devon]
#221127 10/07/10 07:44 AM 10/07/10 07:44 AM |
Joined: Jul 2007 Posts: 976 France pepin
old hand
|
old hand
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 976 France | No matter what cat is selected for the olympics the platform will dictate the competitive weight range.
Using one of the Formula rule is a bad idea as it will have the effect of increasing the cost by a huge factor as each team/manufacturer will spend a fortune developing olympic proto boats
Using a one design from a formula class is also a bad idea: this has the possible effect of having the selected model take over the whole class, I believe that what happened with the Tornado in the past.
So what do you want in an olympic platform? Two crew, three sails, modern design, fast and spectacular. One design, ideally with boats provided for the event. So, what platform could fit these requirements?
16':
The venerable H16 with a spi is a possibility. Everyone knows what a H16 is, you can find one everywhere in the world, they are cheap and the class is used to provided boats for events. Downside: the NA class don't like the spi, the weight range is light light light, and albeit spectacular sometimes the H16 is technically a slow dinosaur.
Viper: As I said I don't like the idea, as the Viper is a F16
Spitfire: Nice boat, still evolving, but the weight range is too low IMHO.
18':
As I said before, bad idea to select a F18, even an older design. There are not a lot of 18 footer that are not F18 these days...
20':
Tornado one design: Known quantity, spectacular boat. But it looks dated with its pointy bows and centerboards. The best bet really to stay olympic.
Go to something new and exciting (Macca will like me know) like the Nacra F20. This boat is spectacular, extremely quick, highly technical and one design. Probably the same cost envelope as a Tornado.
| | | Re: Multihulls and the Olympics
[Re: Matt M]
#221142 10/07/10 08:46 AM 10/07/10 08:46 AM |
Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 297 rexdenton
enthusiast
|
enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 297 | It’s ISAF and our own hang ups that are the issue here. We are killing ourselves with this drivel. The IOC does not place restrictions on what can compete etc. Do you think all the bob sleds, or rowing shells , or even shoes are 1 design.
We are in danger of losing all sailing from the Olympics because it has no viewership and is expensive to produce.
Any properly constructed box rule can limit to some extent the expense. Even in a completely open environment the boat is only a small portion of the cost of a campaign anyway if you want to be competitive.
Either way the boat has to be flashy and we have to get young hot bodies out on the course. (leaves me out but that is not all unfortunately) And cost and competition is the real rub here. IOC wants an inexpensive, widely available platform that is exciting. Without taking a position, this language logically means the F18 or H16. The F16 seems logical too, but the world fleets are rather small, at least from what I can see around here. F16, like the H16 may also favor small crew/skipper combos. For the F18, then, it sort of fits. The box manufacturing model of aluminum and fiberglass (mostly) was put together to minimize cost. The question is whether or not IAF18 governance is appropriately thoughtful and empowered to protect the box rule such that F18 could fares more like the laser and less like the Tornado class if it is ultimately selected. (i.e. what can IAF18 [or any selected box class]do to prevent a mfr 'arms race' to protect themselves.) This is what IAF18/F16 should be discussing with ISAF and consider internally, rather than reacting to what happened to the Tornado as a part of the history of the boat. Let's be proactive as well as practical when discussing these options. There are a 2 plausible options for any F18 selection (again, I am not advocating anything here): 1)Go with Tiger as the one-design. I have seen some fast Tigers beat more modern boats. Ask Mischa Heemskirk about the Canadian Nationals. 2)Go with an Alter Cup style bid by the manufacturers. IMHO the N20 at $35-40K, and with all that carbon tweaking and foils, etc. is an IOC non-starter, because the IOC hates equipment being exploited as a factor in the competition.
Last edited by rexdenton; 10/07/10 08:53 AM.
Nacra F18 #856
| | |
|
0 registered members (),
474
guests, and 116
spiders. | Key: Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod | | Forums26 Topics22,405 Posts267,058 Members8,150 | Most Online2,167 Dec 19th, 2022 | | |