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Re: Square top sails [Re: ThunderMuffin] #227954
02/01/11 12:44 PM
02/01/11 12:44 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Tad ,get over yourself.
How about let Trey answer for himself, he's a big boy (again no pun intended).


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Square top sails [Re: ThunderMuffin] #227955
02/01/11 12:59 PM
02/01/11 12:59 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,403
V
Ventucky Red Offline
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V

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Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by TeamChums
Quote
I'm at work - and I'll admit that I didn't do a thorough examination of the rules where it says "you must buy from a dealer." In fact, I did a search for "dealer" on that page and it doesn't appear in the whole body of the document.


Ok, I see that now too. BUT, point is, when the rest of us (I haven't yet but will soon) try to buy direct from E/P, we get the old "call your dealer" response. Here's the caveat; You can get a sail for a N6.0 or 5.8, ect. directly from E/P as long as it's NOT a class sail (square top). They have no problem doing custom work.

Lee, I see what you're trying to say here. That because Trey supposedly went direct to EP that they considered it "custom work" and therefore the sail is not "class legal".

By all means, next Tybee go ahead and protest Trey for his supposedly non-class legal sail that wouldn't measure in because its supposedly "custom work." We'll get a measurer over and clear this up toot suite.

Then we'll go ahead and have a look at all the sails in the fleet at that point - and I'm 125% positive that you wont find an illegal sail in the Velocity stable. Check our boxes too - there are no skeletons there to be found.


If you're looking for the new spinnaker, EP has one for sale

http://www.epsails.com/used.htm


Re: Square top sails [Re: ThunderMuffin] #227957
02/01/11 01:12 PM
02/01/11 01:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by Undecided
As for the process of buying sails, Trey did NOTHING WRONG per the rules and any accusation of such is tantamount to accusing him of cheating.


You see nothing wrong with one team being able to go directly to a sail maker and getting their sails custom cut for their crew weight (allegedly) yet the rest of the class does not have the same access... Really Tad!?

Like it or not the class president will be held to a higher standard, that's just how it works.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Square top sails [Re: David Ingram] #227961
02/01/11 01:43 PM
02/01/11 01:43 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
T
ThunderMuffin Offline
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ThunderMuffin  Offline
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T

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
Quote
You see nothing wrong with one team being able to go directly to a sail maker and getting their sails custom cut for their crew weight (allegedly) yet the rest of the class does not have the same access... Really Tad!?


Ding, TREY DID NOT DO THIS. He bought his sails from Nacra using the class sailplan with Nacra approved sail materials built by the Nacra license sailmaker. There was no "custom cut" done - nor was his sail ever "recut".

And Trey isn't able to answer for himself because he's on the road travelling for work almost constantly.

Re: Square top sails [Re: ThunderMuffin] #227962
02/01/11 01:48 PM
02/01/11 01:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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South Carolina
hells bells - feel free to post about my sails or my boats...but I'll not be dragged into the **** fight.


Jake Kohl
Re: Square top sails [Re: David Ingram] #227965
02/01/11 02:02 PM
02/01/11 02:02 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Undecided
As for the process of buying sails, Trey did NOTHING WRONG per the rules and any accusation of such is tantamount to accusing him of cheating.


You see nothing wrong with one team being able to go directly to a sail maker and getting their sails custom cut for their crew weight (allegedly) yet the rest of the class does not have the same access... Really Tad!?

Like it or not the class president will be held to a higher standard, that's just how it works.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Square top sails [Re: David Ingram] #227967
02/01/11 02:41 PM
02/01/11 02:41 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,490
On the Water
P.M. Offline
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On the Water
Trey and I (both trying to work today) are having a healthy discussion via phone in between client calls and meetings. In the end, we both strive for the same goal, although the path to reach that goal is not clear. We will focus on that path. My desire is that what ever path N20 takes that the process is transparent, and put before all owners to vote. I understand that Trey's role as being the liaison between the factory and the owners is both a difficult and challenging task, one that I would not want to manage. We are bouncing around some good ideas. Clearly, N20 is at a crossroads.

As for the sails, it is obvious that the sails came directly from EP. That doesn't change the fact that Trey is an excellent sailor. So the dirty laundry has being aired. Trey can choose to answer the direct questions or not.

Tad, you really do need to go sailing. Contra principia negantem non est disputandum.


Philip
USA #1006
Re: Square top sails [Re: P.M.] #227968
02/01/11 02:58 PM
02/01/11 02:58 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 271
Atlanta, Ga
BLR_0719 Offline
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BLR_0719  Offline
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Atlanta, Ga
Originally Posted by mummp
Tad, you are putting words in my mouth. It's not about cheating, and I'm not accusing anyone of cheating. No mention of your sails, Brett's and others, just Don's as the two color sails are unique.


Originally Posted by mummp
. . . Makes me wonder how many sails including jibs and spins were privileged to Trey and the Velocity Sailing Team,


And unless Trey or anyone has secretly been using an endpole snuffer, the illegal use of the developmental sails is a mute point.



Re: Square top sails [Re: ThunderMuffin] #227971
02/01/11 03:12 PM
02/01/11 03:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 829
Charleston, SC
NCSUtrey Offline
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Posts: 829
Charleston, SC
"Bottom line question; Trey, what was the complete cenario regarding the purchase of the sails that you are currently sailing with, begining with placing your order {details like, were they cut specially for your weight?} and ending with recieving them?"

In November of 2008 I wanted a new set of sails (just main and jib). I called Jack and told him that I was going to buy a new set, but I wanted it to be in smoke and white colors (Mike Krantz had the first set made, then me, then Jake, and then me again). Jack knew that smoke fabric wasn't available, or at least that E/P didn't have any. I called Skip at E/P and and got all the info for the cloth: manufacturer, model, cloth weight, etc. I told skip I'd find the fabric, he could order what he needed, and then I could have my smoke/white main. I found the cloth on the east coast up in NE somewhere and put Skip in touch. I kept in touch with Jack regarding the progress of the sails and when they'd be shipping them. They didn't get them finished in time to send to my house, so Jack shipped them to me for pickup at Tradewinds 2009. Jamie Livingston and I used them for the first time at that regatta.
They are not recut sails.
They are not cut to any specific weight.
They are not a new sailplan.
They are 100% the same as any of you can buy right now.
I did not buy them from E/P. My only involvement with Skip was to find the cloth.
Any more questions?

Devon, I'm sorry your thread has been hijacked. If you would like some solid advice on square top sails, I suggest you call Skip Elliot at E/P sails or maybe Jay Glaser with Glaser sails. Either of these 2 people will be more than willing to share unbiased, up-to-date info on what you're seeking.

Alright, who's next?


Trey
Re: Square top sails [Re: BLR_0719] #227972
02/01/11 03:13 PM
02/01/11 03:13 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 712
mikekrantz Offline
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Posts: 712
day-umm, where's my popcorn

Re: Square top sails [Re: NCSUtrey] #227975
02/01/11 03:26 PM
02/01/11 03:26 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
TeamChums Offline
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TeamChums  Offline
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Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
Quote
Any more questions?



Nope, that covers my original question.


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
Re: Square top sails [Re: mikekrantz] #227976
02/01/11 03:26 PM
02/01/11 03:26 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 271
Atlanta, Ga
BLR_0719 Offline
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 271
Atlanta, Ga
Originally Posted by mikekrantz
day-umm, where's my popcorn


[Linked Image]

Last edited by BLR_0719; 02/01/11 03:27 PM.


Re: Square top sails [Re: mikekrantz] #227980
02/01/11 03:41 PM
02/01/11 03:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
Originally Posted by mikekrantz
day-umm, where's my popcorn


This thread is way past popcorn...it requires alcohol at this point.


Jake Kohl
Re: Square top sails [Re: NCSUtrey] #227983
02/01/11 04:23 PM
02/01/11 04:23 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by NCSUtrey


Alright, who's next?


Do you really sleep in Power Ranger footy pajamas and are they Chinese knockoffs or real licensed Power Ranger pajamas?


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Square top sails [Re: TEAMVMG] #227985
02/01/11 04:34 PM
02/01/11 04:34 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Joined: Sep 2002
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by TEAMVMG
Originally Posted by Devon
I am getting a new mainsail for my I17 it currently has a very small square top, Nacra have said that bigger is better,They have mentioned pentax as a material, which will match my jib. Why just go square why not go up and out ? Like the 18ft skiffs do. Any suggestions please..

Paul,
Don't you have a pink boat to rig? grin

Devon,
Trey's advice about contacting Skip Elliott or Jay Glaser is spot on.
I'll give you my thoughts on it and their worth what was paid for them. The "up" is good, not sure about the out. As far as I know the 18skiff "leech longer than the top of the mast thing" hasn't been done to that extreme on a cat. The p-19 MX actually extended the entire sail above the mast with a vertical batten. If you're not looking to stay SMOD I would talk to Jay Glaser about his A cat shapes and see if he could apply that to a main for your I-17. That's the direction I'll probably go with my N/I 20,except I won't go bigger just move around the area I have.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Square top sails [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #227986
02/01/11 04:37 PM
02/01/11 04:37 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
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PTP  Offline
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Posts: 2,921
Michigan
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
That's the direction I'll probably go with my N/I 20,except I won't go bigger just move around the area I have.

you better get a receipt for ever step of that process to keep us all happy too. Keeping it legit and all smile
sent your cover today.

Re: Square top sails [Re: Jake] #227987
02/01/11 04:51 PM
02/01/11 04:51 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,403
V
Ventucky Red Offline
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,403
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by mikekrantz
day-umm, where's my popcorn


This thread is way past popcorn...it requires alcohol at this point.


Not even close, I take you have never been to a Laser or a J-24 protest meeting. Hell, Trey would have been protested on the beach and disqualified from even coming to the start line if the sails we're in the least bit in question/suspect. I would rather be Mubarak waking down the main street of Cairo then be on that hot seat - they through stuff at ya, spit in your face, key your car, kick you dog, and.........!

So I guess moving forward what is going to be the rule on sails? I'll be looking to upgrade my wardrobe over the next year or so which a jib and a spinnaker is going to happen real soon. Am I constrained to getting these through the NACRA network, or can I go to Glaser or Whirlwind and still be legal?



Re: Square top sails [Re: Ventucky Red] #227988
02/01/11 05:01 PM
02/01/11 05:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 712
mikekrantz Offline
old hand
mikekrantz  Offline
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Posts: 712
you'll have to go through the US Nacra network to remain class legal.

Re: Square top sails [Re: Ventucky Red] #227989
02/01/11 05:01 PM
02/01/11 05:01 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
Carpal Tunnel
PTP  Offline
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Posts: 2,921
Michigan
not that my opinion belongs here, cause I'm not an owner, but I say anarchy rules!!!!
In the end, if you own one of these boats you will likely be looking at a lot of DPN racing against boats that have open sail development (F18s). Might as well make it as fast as possible for its already low rating. If you guys think you will be predominantly racing against other N20s then keep it SMOD with development from one manufacturer. You have to be honest with yourself when you answer that question as a class.

Last edited by PTP; 02/01/11 05:02 PM.
Re: Square top sails [Re: PTP] #227991
02/01/11 05:53 PM
02/01/11 05:53 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 271
Atlanta, Ga
BLR_0719 Offline
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Posts: 271
Atlanta, Ga
Originally Posted by PTP
not that my opinion belongs here, cause I'm not an owner, but I say anarchy rules!!!!
In the end, if you own one of these boats you will likely be looking at a lot of DPN racing against boats that have open sail development (F18s). Might as well make it as fast as possible for its already low rating. If you guys think you will be predominantly racing against other N20s then keep it SMOD with development from one manufacturer. You have to be honest with yourself when you answer that question as a class.


Tybee--probably the biggest thing keeping these boats going--requires you to be class legal.



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