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Re: TNZ flipped AC-45 [Re: catman] #231451
04/22/11 11:44 PM
04/22/11 11:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
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Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Well it is my time of the month!


Blade F16
#777
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: TNZ flipped AC-45 [Re: Timbo] #231453
04/23/11 03:12 AM
04/23/11 03:12 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted by Timbo
When is the last time any of you keyboard comando's went out and sailed your punny little beach cats in 29knots? How'd that work out for you?


Are you kidding!!!!! Hell, have trained in average 30 and came back without swimming and I am sure I am far from the only one here. Some people enjoy sailing in a bit of breeze.

Now let’s see...... These things are designed for a limit of 33 knots. It was gusting 29, could have even been averaging in the teens. The Tornado class limit is 25 knots sustained and in those conditions, you could easily see gusts over 30 during the race.

We do not all need

[Linked Image]


Re: TNZ flipped AC-45 [Re: Timbo] #231454
04/23/11 07:07 AM
04/23/11 07:07 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
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catman  Offline
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Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
Originally Posted by Timbo
Well it is my time of the month!

grin I thought so!


Have Fun
Re: TNZ flipped AC-45 [Re: catman] #231463
04/24/11 09:58 AM
04/24/11 09:58 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 465
FL
sail7seas Offline
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Posts: 465
FL
As you all know, this a common beachcat issue and I have capsized mucho times doing this transition there are two methods I have learned as I have never been successful just turning the corner in the high wind range unless I get lucky and turn in a lull.

One way; going around the weather mark from close hauled to downwind the cat will momentarily go on a reach, if I do not twist the main & jib a bit the cat will go over sideways. And I must make it a moderate turn, if I make a sharp turn, it just drives the lee hull down the mine. During the maneuver the jib needs to be released (blipped) for a second at the reach point of sail (to prevent a reach pitchpole) then quickly hauled back into stall the main to prevent the downwind pitchpole, then release/trim for speed the jib to powerup once the transition is completed.
(CAUTION sailing stalled in winds under 25nt is SLOW)

Second way; if I know from reading the conditions and boat behavior on the upwind leg that it is really honking, and I want to survive the mark rounding, I will modify the above. A moderate turn, and at 90 to the wind, dump both main traveler and jib sheet momentarily, then once downwind quickly bring them back both in to prevent the ensuing downwind pitchpole. The wilder things are the harder the crew sheets in the jib stalling the main to prevent the downwind pitch pole.
(CAUTION sailing stalled in winds under 25nt is SLOW)

Third way; yours?

Have you ever seen a plane fly backwards? Or stalled?
Sailing stalled out (falling in an airplane) with managed projected area (twist or travel) is my key to reducing the excess of wind power. Every notice how slow it is when the crew over sheets the jib, he is STALLING / depowering the sails. Have you ever seen a plane fly backwards? Sailing stalled out with managed projected area is the my key to reducing the excess of wind pressure.

Catamaran mark rounding changed with the addition of spinnaker, turning around the weather mark quickly no longer became a priority in moderate winds. The priority became going hot around the mark, setting the chute, and protecting your wind, from the attacking boat behind. If you turn the mark to quickly, there is a good chance the boat behind will blanket/ pass you with a hotter/faster angle. However,pushing the envelope in the high wind range as the AC 45 did, does not make any sense to me, as you are already going very close to top speed, and already on the verge of losing it.

Observing recent x40 video the cat that went over was sailing hot around the mark had their traveler out and powered up, vs ETNZ behind had theirs only a couple feet out from center and going comparatively slow.

Perhaps just depower wing by twisting the top section independently?

These guys have proved like beachcats you can not just bear away around the mark like a keelboat, and need to read the conditions and sail accordingly, or figure out a way to stall the wing making the transition. Moderate conditions the bear away is no big deal and passing is possible, but at the top of the wind range / top speed, push the envelope to where?

Re: TNZ flipped AC-45 [Re: Todd_Sails] #231487
04/25/11 12:09 PM
04/25/11 12:09 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 976
France
pepin Offline
old hand
pepin  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 976
France
Originally Posted by Just Todd
Originally Posted by Capt_Cardiac
[...] I pitch poled my 18HT 2 weeks ago reaching with the kite at 19.3 kts. (Speed puck confirmed after the fact) That was fun! Flew around the boat just forward of the leeward bow.


Capt'n, your story, and I'd stick to it, was that you were just checking out the jib and bridle wire while underway!
Except there's no jib on a 18HT... Here goes the excuse!

Re: TNZ flipped AC-45 [Re: pepin] #231515
04/26/11 12:27 AM
04/26/11 12:27 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Tony_F18 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Tony_F18  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Oracle white flips during the practice event.
Pics: http://chriscameron.photoshelter.co...acle-capsize-26-4-2011/G0000fu_LwjJ.eb8/

Re: TNZ flipped AC-45 [Re: Tony_F18] #231516
04/26/11 02:04 AM
04/26/11 02:04 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Tony_F18 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Tony_F18  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL

Re: TNZ flipped AC-45 [Re: Tony_F18] #231525
04/26/11 09:36 AM
04/26/11 09:36 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 172
Anacortes
Sloansailing Offline
member
Sloansailing  Offline
member

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 172
Anacortes
Great footage!


Anacortes Rigging.com
Rigging and Yacht Services
Re: TNZ flipped AC-45 [Re: Sloansailing] #231526
04/26/11 09:50 AM
04/26/11 09:50 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
I agree! It's going to be a great series and I couldn't be more pleased that they will sail in some breeze!


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: TNZ flipped AC-45 [Re: David Ingram] #231527
04/26/11 10:14 AM
04/26/11 10:14 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
Carpal Tunnel
PTP  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
It has to be sketchy dealing with a solid wing in winds like that. Mainly because I don't think anyone can be used to depowering them quickly. Of course I could be wrong... but think about it.
and another thing... does anyone think these boats could use a little more volume up front?

Re: TNZ flipped AC-45 [Re: PTP] #231528
04/26/11 10:23 AM
04/26/11 10:23 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
T
ThunderMuffin Offline
Carpal Tunnel
ThunderMuffin  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
T

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
There's a video of Oracle standing one of these things up in breeze comparable to this... and it just trucked along.

In this scenario, Spithill said that they didn't have the boat "setup properly for the run". In the pics, you can see what appears to be the leward dagger all the way down which would generate a bit of lift going downwind smile

Re: TNZ flipped AC-45 [Re: ThunderMuffin] #231530
04/26/11 11:49 AM
04/26/11 11:49 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Sail-World has a nice article with pictures. Also I read somewhere that TNZ just hired Morrelli and Melvin to "...adress the volume in the bow issues..."

http://www.sail-world.com/NZ/Americas-Cup:-Oracle-Racings-James-Spithill-joins-the-Mile-High-Club/82857


Blade F16
#777
Re: TNZ flipped AC-45 [Re: Timbo] #231532
04/26/11 12:38 PM
04/26/11 12:38 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 465
FL
sail7seas Offline
addict
sail7seas  Offline
addict

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 465
FL
My experience is if you do not stall the rig (as described above) before the puff downwind or making the transition you will pitchpole or capsize.
Letting the sails out or stalling the rig after the puff does not work in the higher wind range. And a crew member can call the puffs.
The wind speed at the tip is what 40nt?, and having the boards up would help:
however, the wing has 2x(+) more lift than a beachcat sail, so all the more importance to stall the wing.

Re: TNZ flipped AC-45 [Re: sail7seas] #231557
04/26/11 06:01 PM
04/26/11 06:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 308
Reno NV
R
Rhino1302 Offline
enthusiast
Rhino1302  Offline
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R

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 308
Reno NV
It looked like they managed to right the boat without outside assistance. Am I wrong?

Re: TNZ flipped AC-45 [Re: Rhino1302] #231558
04/26/11 06:08 PM
04/26/11 06:08 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Tony_F18 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Tony_F18  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Yes you are smile
They used two RIBs, one to right it and one to keep it head to wind

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