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Re: What if the Olympic Multihull is not good for Multihulls [Re: mbounds] #232345
05/13/11 08:33 AM
05/13/11 08:33 AM
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brucat Offline
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Originally Posted by mbounds
Originally Posted by brucat
I don't see how anyone could be thrown out for cheating with a provided-boat event (at least, not for illegal masts, extra-wide boats, etc.). Totally losing me here.

2007 Pan Am Games in Brazil. Home team had some questionably class legal mods to their boat (old style mast head on Comptip, corner castings moved out on crossbars and re-riveted to increase beam). Talk to Bob M. - he was there and filed the protest that eventually had the Brazilians tossed out - they would have won the event. Boos and trash thrown at competitors and officials at the prize-giving ceremony.

It's the reason we have the "maximum sail hoist diagrams" in the Hobie Class Rules now.


I totally remember that situation (and am aware that it was the catalyst for the rule change).

In my mind, that was more of a "chartered boat" format, since the boats were used and not rotated. Sounds like this guy got to pick/bring his own boat and keep it for the whole event. At all of the "provided boat" events that I've been associated with, the boats are ALWAYS selected/assigned by lottery, and usually rotated during the event.

Anyone know who the officials were? While trash-throwing is extremely weak on the part of the fans, I would say this looks bad on a resume. They should have rotated the boats, at least then the jury could have done something better to fix the problem (such as throw out all results for that boat, or something).

Of course, starting with ensuring all of the boats were equal prior to the start would have been the logical first step (although they may have tried and missed these somewhat subtle changes). As this event clearly shows, there are unique issues with using USED provided boats, and even more reason to rotate.

Mike

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: What if the Olympic Multihull is not good for Multihulls [Re: Timbo] #232349
05/13/11 10:22 AM
05/13/11 10:22 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 778
Houston
carlbohannon Offline OP
old hand
carlbohannon  Offline OP
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 778
Houston
Originally Posted by Timbo
Mark, still I'm having trouble figuring out how it could be Bad for Multihulls.



Let me answer that.

If an active F16 were selected, I think it would kill the Class. All the money would go the Olympic boat. All the hot sailors would move to the Olympic boat, with mixed teams. Since the F16 Class is small, I think the selected boat would move to one design events and the F16 Class would end up being largely ignored, Like the B-Class. Loss of our most promising new class is a high price.

If an active F18 were selected, itís harder to tell, F18 is different. Itís big and F18ís strengths are being able to feed new sailors, practice and tune-up at big events with lots of hot competition. The problem is they would have separate powerful class inside F18. The Olympic boat has mixed crews and it will probably be locked into a ridged no development one design. The Olympic Class boat will fall behind and the mixed crew will probably not be representative of the regular sailors so there may be pressure to change the F18 rules. Olympic sailors and wannabes could end up as a large percentage of the active voting members. I bring this up because I think the Tiger has been positioned to be a candidate. I think the F18 Fleet could end up being damaged and we can't afford having our strongest class damaged just to have a boat in the Olympics .

What do I think the best choice would be:

A modified Tornado, with strict rules concerning platform, standing rigging, mast, and spin pole. Allow development in running rigging and foils. Sails for the Olympics would be from a single supplier, delivered to the Olympics. It's already lost to us. I speak as owner of Tornado US782. It can work for mixed crew as a one design. One of my favorite memories was a course with a reach. The F18ís were in front at A mark, double trapped and traveled out to the footstrap to hold it down. . Me with just a girl on the wire going , shall we pass to windward or leeward? And forget the A-C course, if you are going to sail cats, bring back the reach and put the reach leg were the spectators can see it.

H16- it fits the mixed crew and would fit in with the other Olympic boats. Sail and ABC course and pitch poles would add spectator interest.

New design for mixed crew and I think Vanguard with 3 boats in the Olympics, has an edge here


Re: What if the Olympic Multihull is not good for Multihulls [Re: carlbohannon] #232356
05/13/11 11:36 AM
05/13/11 11:36 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Originally Posted by carlbohannon
Originally Posted by Timbo
Mark, still I'm having trouble figuring out how it could be Bad for Multihulls.



Let me answer that.

If an active F16 boat were selected, I think it would kill the F16 Class. All the money would go the Olympic boat. All the hot sailors would move to the Olympic boat, with mixed teams. Since the F16 Class is small, I think the selected boat would move to one design events and the F16 Class would end up being largely ignored, Like the B-Class. Loss of our most promising new class is a high price.



Put yourself in the place of a new club level buyer... No expectation of ever going to an Olympic regatta...

Hmm... The Olympics picked this particular F16... must be the best one.

Hmm... the resale value will be the highest... because it is the Olympic boat and everyone has heard of it.

Selecting a One Design Class who wants to be Olympic is one thing... Selecting a OD class out of a Formula construct is quite another.



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: What if the Olympic Multihull is not good for Multihulls [Re: carlbohannon] #232377
05/13/11 01:34 PM
05/13/11 01:34 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 120
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maritimesailor Offline
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Posts: 120
After reading this I'm starting to lean towards a 20 footer, perhaps a Tornado as described by carlbohannon or an N20, or something. Let the 16 and 18's be the devlopment fleets (i.e add to what they have now), F16s could be the official junior boat, F18s a good boat to have to get into big fleets, the "Olympic 20" as the final goal.

Should be interesting, but yeah, I worry, as a lot have, that choosing an instance of the F18 class could harm and not help the fleet.
Originally Posted by carlbohannon


Let me answer that.

If an active F16 were selected, I think it would kill the Class. All the money would go the Olympic boat. All the hot sailors would move to the Olympic boat, with mixed teams. Since the F16 Class is small, I think the selected boat would move to one design events and the F16 Class would end up being largely ignored, Like the B-Class. Loss of our most promising new class is a high price.

If an active F18 were selected, itís harder to tell, F18 is different. Itís big and F18ís strengths are being able to feed new sailors, practice and tune-up at big events with lots of hot competition. The problem is they would have separate powerful class inside F18. The Olympic boat has mixed crews and it will probably be locked into a ridged no development one design. The Olympic Class boat will fall behind and the mixed crew will probably not be representative of the regular sailors so there may be pressure to change the F18 rules. Olympic sailors and wannabes could end up as a large percentage of the active voting members. I bring this up because I think the Tiger has been positioned to be a candidate. I think the F18 Fleet could end up being damaged and we can't afford having our strongest class damaged just to have a boat in the Olympics .

What do I think the best choice would be:

A modified Tornado, with strict rules concerning platform, standing rigging, mast, and spin pole. Allow development in running rigging and foils. Sails for the Olympics would be from a single supplier, delivered to the Olympics. It's already lost to us. I speak as owner of Tornado US782. It can work for mixed crew as a one design. One of my favorite memories was a course with a reach. The F18ís were in front at A mark, double trapped and traveled out to the footstrap to hold it down. . Me with just a girl on the wire going , shall we pass to windward or leeward? And forget the A-C course, if you are going to sail cats, bring back the reach and put the reach leg were the spectators can see it.

H16- it fits the mixed crew and would fit in with the other Olympic boats. Sail and ABC course and pitch poles would add spectator interest.

New design for mixed crew and I think Vanguard with 3 boats in the Olympics, has an edge here


Re: What if the Olympic Multihull is not good for Multihulls [Re: brucat] #232399
05/13/11 07:59 PM
05/13/11 07:59 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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John Williams  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by mbounds
Originally Posted by brucat
I don't see how anyone could be thrown out for cheating with a provided-boat event (at least, not for illegal masts, extra-wide boats, etc.). Totally losing me here.

2007 Pan Am Games in Brazil. Home team had some questionably class legal mods to their boat (old style mast head on Comptip, corner castings moved out on crossbars and re-riveted to increase beam). Talk to Bob M. - he was there and filed the protest that eventually had the Brazilians tossed out - they would have won the event. Boos and trash thrown at competitors and officials at the prize-giving ceremony.

It's the reason we have the "maximum sail hoist diagrams" in the Hobie Class Rules now.


I totally remember that situation (and am aware that it was the catalyst for the rule change).

In my mind, that was more of a "chartered boat" format, since the boats were used and not rotated. Sounds like this guy got to pick/bring his own boat and keep it for the whole event. At all of the "provided boat" events that I've been associated with, the boats are ALWAYS selected/assigned by lottery, and usually rotated during the event.

Anyone know who the officials were? While trash-throwing is extremely weak on the part of the fans, I would say this looks bad on a resume. They should have rotated the boats, at least then the jury could have done something better to fix the problem (such as throw out all results for that boat, or something).

Of course, starting with ensuring all of the boats were equal prior to the start would have been the logical first step (although they may have tried and missed these somewhat subtle changes). As this event clearly shows, there are unique issues with using USED provided boats, and even more reason to rotate.

Mike


Should I yell? The boats at the PanAms referenced, and for the next PanAms, are not provided. It is a BYOB event.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: What if the Olympic Multihull is not good for Multihulls [Re: John Williams] #232400
05/13/11 08:06 PM
05/13/11 08:06 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
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brucat Offline
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Thanks John, that actually makes a LOT more sense. And, it sounds like the officials and competitors did the right thing, a protest was initiated by the competitors.

Too bad the same can't be said for the fans. Unless, throwing garbage is accepted behavior for adults in that culture...

Mike

Re: What if the Olympic Multihull is not good for Multihulls [Re: Mark Schneider] #232401
05/13/11 08:17 PM
05/13/11 08:17 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
windswept Offline
addict
windswept  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Yes boat development, (Sail shape,) Zucolli built the custom mains for many Olympic programs on their dime and turned that knowledge into F18 sails. Technique... Wild thing for down wind sailing (mitch booth innovated this one). Rigging, snuffers of today come about because the T class sailors tried everything to get an edge.... Otherwise... you could still have end pole snuffers....


I was going to respond to this thread with some of these things. I was involved with the class from the late seventies through the new rig change in 2003/04. The top sailors in the class were the ones bringing development into the class with some of the top builders. This was one driven and innovative class considering the constraints of being a OD-DC.

As to what is good for multihulls versus the Olympics. It seems that multihull racing is doing a pretty good job of driving development with the A-Class and F-18 class leading the way. I think that this is separate from the Olympic guidelines which for sailing want strict one-design racing. It is kind of funny though that this was one of the complaints about the Tornado, the rules were not tight enough. If you have been around the Star, Finn and 470 class you will find these rules are equally as loose. My bottom line thought is that I do not think that the Olympics should or will have much impact on Multihull racing in general. If the Tiger is chosen for the Olympics it will give a new use to a boat that is no longer competitve on a national or worldwide level. It is probably competitive on a local level. This would help out Hobie, but would have no real affect on the F-18 class as a whole. Maybe there should be trials as was done when the Tornado was chosen for 76 in effect using guidelines similar to the B-class but smaller. This could produce a new boat with up to date building and design processes. This would negate the battle over whether it should be an F-18, F-16, B-Class or Hobie 16. A new boat, a new class for the Olympics.

With that stated I still think and have since its removal, that the Tornado is the proper class for 2016.

Last edited by windswept; 05/13/11 08:21 PM.

Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
Re: What if the Olympic Multihull is not good for Multihulls [Re: John Williams] #232411
05/13/11 10:56 PM
05/13/11 10:56 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
veteran
Luiz  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Originally Posted by John Williams

Should I yell? The boats at the PanAms referenced, and for the next PanAms, are not provided. It is a BYOB event.


What John wrote is correct.
Two opinions:
If the H16 is chosen there will be more countries willing to participate than if any other class is chosen. Even Paraguay would give it a try. Interestingly, this could be a reason NOT to choose the H16, for more countries translate into higher costs.

I'd like to see a winged F16 one design at the 2016 games, especially if they sell the boats afterwards... grin you know, I sold the beauty in the avatar...


Luiz
Re: What if the Olympic Multihull is not good for Multihulls [Re: Luiz] #232414
05/14/11 06:36 AM
05/14/11 06:36 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,046
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Timbo  Offline
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Sebring, Florida.
What about the C cats? They've already got years of development in the wing sails, and I'm sure they would like to get some Chicks on board!

Wait...combine women's beach volly ball with Mixed Multihull! There's a spectator sport for you!

Wait...I've got it, Feed Mayonnaise to Tuna Fish!

(Name that movie)


Blade F16
#777
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