The worlds have started and after 4 races, there is a nice mix of boats at the front of the fleet;

http://2011.f18worlds.com/

A couple of nations are conspicuous by their absence, I think we may be in for a ticking off by the International Class Assoc

35 knots... that is a little sporty.

I really don't see how the International Class Assoc. could say anything regarding who is in attendance or not and if they did it would be a converstaion I would look forward to.

Got popcorn everyone?

Pete, what is it that you think you see here?

Paul made a comment I don't particularly agree with, no big deal it happens. Personally I don't think the International Class would say anything and I believe they fully understand the issues with getting to Worlds. If they did have something to say I certianly would want to be included in the converation.

Sorry to disappoint.

Why? It was in Hungary...which is very inland Europe and hard to get to from anywhere outside of Europe. There are several Austrailian teams present - the usual rock stars...but there are several Aussy teams that are usually at the worlds that aren't there too. Logistically, it is just a difficult place to get to for anyone outside of Europe not to mention that the event is being held on an inland lake where the weather conditions are less consistent than would be at a coastal venue.

Roughly scanning the countries, it appears 95% of the teams are from Europe and that only 7 are from outside of Europe. 15 are from Hungary itself. I wouldn't say that no US or Canada, or Mexico (Brazil, etc.) participation is that surprising.

"...it would be a converstaion I would look forward to."

I was looking forward to it.

Again, sorry to disappoint.

I'm at the worlds at the moment and with only a 100 boats, participation really is quite low.
I think one of the reasons the number of entries is down is the reputation of lake Balaton as a low wind location with the typical lake winds.
Although I dont know how on earth you could fit 200 cats here anyway, there is barely enough room for a 100!
Another reason is the distance, its a 1400km drive which is a lot for european standards but its not too bad as the roads are really good.
IMO the Argentinian team did the smart thing by renting a Nacra in Holland for a few week, they did the Nacra Worlds, Round Texel, and now the F18 Worlds.

Winds were very shifty today, spent 5h on the water but every race was abandoned due to huge shifts and differences in pressure.
In one race you could do the upwind tack with the kite up!

OK, I'm with Ding on this, where exactly is the issue? Why is ISAF going to be ticked, Paul?

This is an International Class hosting a World Championship. A quick view of the results of this particular World Championship regatta shows participation of over 100 boats, representing at least 4 continents, and a bunch of countries.

ISAF Reg 25.2.1(b) is easily being met.

I've been to a Worlds regatta with 21 keelboats. There are lots of classes out there that would kill to have 100 boats at Worlds, let alone "down from 200."

Incidentally, that wind map scares me (with all the twists and shifts and shafts of wind)!

Mike

How are the Balaton mosquitos Tony, have you all been feeding them?

why are you bringing ISAF into this?

Isn't the job of the international class to manage worlds to grow the class and serve the membership. Aren't they supposed to zap the regions that don't play.

It's the you come to my event... I will come to your event bargain!

Does the f18 promote teams from afar with sponsoring a container from each continent?

Are you saying the nations that don't show should some how be santioned? Is that what your are suggesting?

Pete, you might want to reheat that popcorn.

As in, we have too much participation in our sport and need to find new ways to exclude people...yah...right.

Who said exclude individual sailors.

The international class could not put the worlds in your neck of the woods any time soon ...

They could reduce the slots your country is allocated on the initial deal. (Occasionally this will be important to you)

If they get sponsor money, they could direct it to regions that have supported worlds by attending in the past.... eg container subsidies.

They can reduce your voting rights or ability to submit proposals.

The basics... of I will come to your event... if you will come to my event hold...even at the world level.

I am not recommending any action... sounded like Paul was talking about a strong phone call or email or two.

Paul, you still haven't answered why anyone is going to be ticked.

I mentioned ISAF, because since those requirements are being met, nothing is in jeopardy for the class association.

I could see the class association thinking twice about awarding a future Worlds to a country/continent that consistently doesn't support events in other regions, but I don't see that as the case here.

Again, what are we missing?

Mike

EDIT: Mark and I were writing at the same time, he is giving other excellent examples of things that could be done, but I don't necessarily think that this one event warrants any action at this time.

Was there ever any doubt?

Just click on the link and look at the pretty pictures

Orrrrr...you could look at it in a productive positive, business-like manner (the class assoc. would be much more likely to do). Instead of "sanctioning" a weak part of the world and making it weaker, they're probably more likely to host a worlds there, provide support, incentivate, etc. Do things to make it stronger.

The International class could do all of those things but will it promote the sport in the countries that receive the strongly worded email or stern phone call? Will that action move the agenda of class forward or will it alienate the up and coming countries from the class?

Sending an email or giving a stern phone call to a bunch of volunteers serves absolutely no purpose. This isn't an employee employer relationship you can't give volunteers ultimatums, the volunteer is always doing you favor and the volunteer holds all the cards and they and they alone will decide if they want to play or not.

Again, I really don't think it would be in the International class’s best interest to give the National classes a dressing down for not participating this year. Mark don't you think it would be a much better approach to send and email or make a phone call simply asking how the International class could help overcome the obstacles that keep some teams/countries from attending Worlds? The carrot really is the way to go don’t you think? This whole beat em with a stick approach reminds me a lot of another organization I'm involved with.

I am still waiting for the real issue that Paul sees.

Mark gives a list of things that "could" happen, but probably won't.

I mentioned that the ISAF requirements are being met, so the class doesn't have to worry about that.

Realistically, this is not unlike other classes, where EU teams don't come to the US for Worlds, and vice-versa. The economy isn't helping, either.

EDIT: Economy and currency exchange values aside, one (if not THE) root cause of this is the overlapping racing seasons of the US and EU, and pitfalls of a BYOB regatta. In other words, do you really want to be without your boat for the enitre summer while it sits in a container going back and forth across the ocean?

I'm not seeing an emergency, or anything at all to be excited about.

I'm saving my popcorn for a better movie...

Mike

I agree.

Dave you make some excellent points about volunteers.

The A class had some public grumbling about how the Yanks blew off the Aussi Worlds... I have no idea if the International class echoed this complaint to the US class. The US Class did organize a container to the upcoming worlds in No Europe this time.

Your point about volunteers is well made. The way I see it is that many volunteers are running a huge event like a F18 worlds... So, it is demoralizing that all of the effort to pull off a successful event is ignored by important chunks of the class. You want the message delivered... Hey... we are all in this boat/class together... we busted our butts... and we support your event. So...what about you?

Now... how do you take the sentiment of the class volunteers and turn that in a message directed at the no shows... I choose to call it a reminder of your responsibility. You could also call it a big stick.

I have often wondered if a national class should include a container charge so that the national class could subsidize racers going to worlds. Now the cost may still be too high for the individuals and you don't fill the container or send it. BUT...it is very clear you are supporting the Intl Class agenda with some $$$.

Seriously??? What is demoralizing about a 100 boat regatta??? And, where is the data that shows Euros coming here in droves when we host a Worlds???

Mike

For us... 100 boats is fantastic... those guys were looking at 200.... (assuming Europe is = to their part of Europe).

But, I don't think the number of overseas competitors is the real issue.. Rather it's the representation of the top sailors from overseas participating that matters.

The A class Worlds have been twittering about whether Gasby will be racing or not. Superstars matter! The US class trumpets that two of the top three US Sailors will be racing on US platforms at the upcoming worlds.

The standard pre worlds write up for any class will trumpet the talent and where they come from... broad international support is a big deal!

I would bet that a container each from North and South America would have done the job!

Mike discussed how long your boat is out of action. A winning plan is to ship your boat and then sell it in the region of the worlds. Fly home and get a new boat! If the market and the exchange rate are off... that is a factor.
Dealers who broker this would certainly help the international trade!

I am not even sure if there is an F18 class in Brazil. Only saw one custom boat more or less abandoned in the Yacht Club of Rio and one in sailing conditions in Buzios.

You raise an interesting point there, the 2012 worlds are in september which means that euro boats will have to be in containers by august at the latest.
Our season runs until the end of october which means you will miss out on half a season.
This wont be such a problem for the pro teams since they will either ship a 2nd boat or rent one.
IMHO the absolute best time to do a worlds outside europe is between november and march.

It's certainly not a new problem. The Hobie classes have dealt with this for generations. It could be argued that the H16 Worlds are only so successful because the boats are supplied.

Mark would probably say that means that a 100 boat BYOB event shows more support than a 200-boat rotating format on supplied boats. Knowing many of the sailors, I would disagree, but it's an interesting point.

Mike

No... I would not get too caught up in the size of the regatta debate. I go back to my competition/ world wide participation point... When the worlds gets the top 30 sailors in the class from around the world going head to head... I would declare that an overwhelming success whether you include zero other competitors or 170 other competitors.

Now the scale of the parties and the worlds experience could depend on those other boats but that is a separate point.

Here is a somewhat related question.... Is a worlds truly a championship if the past world champions don't compete (and have not retired)?

The stock reply is ... well... you hold the championship and the champion is the winner and world champion.. But we are human.... So...what do you really think?

You try to make things so complicated!

You hold a championship. The winner is...~sigh~..."the champion".

+1

Ok, that is the standard answer ... Back to the original post...



If that is the case... Why would some one care if a few nations did not post....(It's not about the number of boats is it) This is not the Olympics after all where if your country failed to pay for your rep you could be pissed..

Nope.... IMO, this post is really about the top competition who did not show.

You guys are just whistling past the graveyard....

Right in the middle of sailing season in FL. How convenient for Ding. The whole world at his back door looking for a place to sail....

You want funky lake sailing? Host it in Clermont

You want crazy lake sailing? Find a way to put it in Lake Okeechobee. (Bonus points for any sailor who doesn't spot an alligator bigger than their boat)

Coastal Ocean and its associated surf? Anywhere along the east coast

Less violent pseudo-ocean conditions? Pensacola (colder) to Marco Island (warmer)

You want tropical paridise? Port Charlotte (west)to the Keys (south) to Palm Beach (east)

Wind, sea and temperature conditions vary from 80F and 10-12kts with light chop, to a Nor'easter driving 30+kts along with huge surf (east coast) and temperatures that fall to near freezing

Jan-March seems close to "peak" season in Florida, both for sailing and tourism (so prices might be up), but for a 100+ boat fleet, deals can be made.

Containers can be shipped throughout the state. Jax, Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, Tampa, have container terminals from quick memory. Rail service can get almost everywhere else

Right... that is why the Miami OCR is in late January and follows Key West.

The Euro olympic sailors will package a training camp around the ISAF grade I event and another 3 day event into that 10 day or so period.

What you need is a facility that can handle the containers and base camps of the these teams... including coach boats.

Mixed multihulls coming your way shortly!

I'd think Miami and Sarasota have a good amount of space to handle something of that size.

What kind of acreage would you think is feasable to host 100+ boats, half of which would be from outside USA?

In some ways, who cares what we "want" to happen, we can't force people to show up.

If you want to know what impresses me, it's not a handful of rockstars coming from Europe, it would be more like a minimum of 10 boats per country. Same in reverse. If a handful of US boats go to a Worlds in Europe, that's not really impressing me as the country's class supporting the event, that's a handful of individuals that chose to go.

Not realistic with overlapping seasons, but that would impress me.

Of course, there's really no point to this part of the discussion. We can make it as enticing as possible, but even if the event were free, with free boats, logistics and airfare included, people would find reasons not to go.

Mike

a sad +1 on that....

wow.... I thought I had a high standard for Worlds success.
I don't understand your point of view at all. (say more)

I think of Worlds participation (container required) as rock stars, and full on campaigners plus a few rank and file sailors who are going to Worlds for the experience/vacation in some cool spot in the world. The cost and other issues will keep participation way way down... I would be happy with a single full container from the continent!

I would be impressed by measuring participation when the worlds show up in your part of the world. Getting 80% of your class's regional racers to post would be outstanding. This would measure the hard core support in your neck of the woods.

Two different concepts.

Successful Worlds, that is currently happening.

Impressive support from all areas: Show me more boats from each region.

80% of an area's active racers is probably extremely unrealistic, but if all the other regions send lots of boats, it's less critical.

Mike

Once again an F18 thread ruined by non-F18 sailors. Why don't you guys have conversations like this via email? It seems it's always between the same people anyways.

I came to this thread to get an updated on the F18 worlds.. not read 3 pages of a silly arguement and I don't think I'm alone here.

Thanks.

Yo!... there are 8 English speaking competitors at the regatta and they are not saying much...

SO.... the Original Post says..



Well... that is what we talk about.... Seems like a reasonable issue about F18 worlds.... (or any worlds in this day and age)

Usually, half of the chatter about an f18 event was usually about what platform and mods each of the top sailors are using... because this info was prohibited from being published. This is the first F18 event that I have ever seen where they list the boat type...

Top 4 boats are from 4 builders... so not much controversy there!

Our group did two races yesterday in perfect sailing conditions, you really have to watch where you go as there are a lot of patches with no wind.
All of our starts were pretty rubbish so we didnt make the gold fleet
Not enough wind today for racing, postponement is still up but I hope they call the whole thing of for today soon (its 13:30 now).
Forecast for tomorrow is 14-17kts so that should be good for the final day.

That is lake sailing. Still amazing how the guys at the top can get it sorted out and be surprisingly consistent.

Hey Todd,

Being a non-F18 sailor, I don’t chime in on the manufacturer debates, etc. But, there were questions about whether this Worlds event was meaningful based on entries, and I don’t think you need to own an F18 to have a valuable opinion.

However, I do agree with your last point, and got annoyed with the Alter Cup thread for similar reasons (did somebody say TANGENT?), so I’ll check out now…

See you Saturday!

Mike

qualification for gold/silver fleets done;

http://2011.f18worlds.com/attachments/category/58/qualification%20final%20results.pdf

No racing today - no wind I assume

Twitter update about 40 minutes old:

The races of Groupama Garancia F18 World Championship are over, the final results are on their way after the protests.


Report from the website:

On the last day of the Groupama Garancia F18 World Championship the Lake Balaton says a friendly goodbye with a great wind.

The last races of the championship will be finished in the afternoon. The participants - in golden and silver fleets – finally gained the mercy of the Lake Balaton and they can rule the water again.

It was a nice surprise for Hungary that two Hungarian sailor teams could get in the golden class, the Váradi – Petheö, and the Diószegi – Jankovics duos. The international field was ruled by the world-class Dutch teams, but there were races when our Hungarians could approach the forefront.

“There is a southwestern wind now, and the catamarans are flying! We could not ask for more for the last day. The wind and its direction are stable now. Every ship is on water, and it’s so great to have such a great luck for the last day,” Peter Süle organizer said. The last race will be started at 14:05, and the contestants will certainly take advantage of the opportunity and sail as much as they can.

For the final results we have to wait until late afternoon. The price giving ceremony will be held at 6 pm at the Kisfaludy stage in Balatonfüred. Until then everybody has time to cheer for the teams.


You're welcome, Todd...

Mike

Bundy wins!

It needs to be said that, after last years poor effort, the coverage of this worlds was great and the tracker worked really well - showing some exciting racing.

Was it just me watching it? not a lot of chatter

I honestly did not know there was a tracker!

There is/was no story line unless the class creates one.... F18's are not my class... I haven't seen one on the race course in my area in 5 years.. But, ... I will happily waste my time reading and cheering ... If you give me something... Otherwise.. it is just mothers and wives paying attention... er... maybe it is just mothers...

This thread had only one thing of interest (to me)... How should a class promote or sanction Countries for worlds. Should a class do this..

Contrast the F18's with the A class....
The A class world thread is preoccupied with Glen Asby... Will he or won't he defend?.. Will the AC stuff muck up his schedule... what other rock stars from the usual cast will try to beat him... will he have enough time on the boat to get back to the top... is he that far ahead of people? Next... it will be ... what platform..... Curved or strait foils.. What mast.... How impt is the equipment versus the sailing skill. From the US perspective... will Guck and Struble be able to play on the world stage after missing a couple of years of racing contact with the euros and the aussis... or did we get shot out the back.... How do us rank an file sailors stack up against the guys who do show at worlds when we see them on a race course in our neck of the woods.

Is any of this important... hell no! Is there any money or national glory to be won... Hell no! But... cat sailor fans will pay a bit of attention to the story and A class sailors a good deal more attention because the individuals I mentioned have history and cred in the cat world that we find interesting.

We only know of these stories because the threads have been developing for years and years...

I read your post twice and honestly dont have a clue what you are on about!
Anyway, had you paid more attention you would have noticed a huge story going on, I will give you a clue: sailcloth.

Now there is a tease!!!! tell me more...

I remember the F18 class having tight restrictions on sail cloth....(fall out from the Tornado cuben fiber fiasco) Something new on the approved list??

Something new not on the approved list?

Some sails had materials in them which are not on the list:
http://db.tt/Q84gMyV

The spirit of the rule was to sanction and approve materials that controlled costs and kept the sails in a competitive window. Is this a case of a technical violation with the sail cloth just not making the date to be approved or is there a real price and performance difference with the sail cloth?

Does it matter? A company such as Sail Innovation is well aware of the class rules, if they are building sails outside the rules they should expect that those sails will be protested.

Okay Mark I'll bite. Why is there even a distinction between what's on the approved list and something where there is no price and performance difference but not on the list? Who makes the call for the products that are not on the list? What's the process? Please don't say it's up to the protest committee to determine if an unapproved material is okay for use.

Class rules for international classes have to be written so that they don't just say what isn't allowed, they have to say what IS allowed. With sail material, this is a minefield because new materials and trade names are emerging all the time, so the list will never be up to date.
The clauses about 'spirit of the rule' are ment to overcome this problem

The cloth makers are not paying any attention to the F18 class meeting schedule, much less the technical committee. They make and market their new formulations all the time...

The cuben fiber material was superior/faster... but 4x more expensive and lasted a regatta or two. Good enough for a Silver in the 3 ring circus.... (IT was proprietary though and available to only three teams at the time) The T class joined with the F18 class (the much bigger market) to regulate materials after that and cuben fiber was banned.

I could see a small sail maker saying... the new material complies with the spirt of the rule (unlike the cuben fiber)... It will be approved by the F18 technical committee when it is considered. This will be our marketing edge and the F18 worlds are now.... so we will use it. Did the sailors who bought the sails know this ahead of time?... Was one sailor promoting the sails and did know?

Looking at the date deadlines on the paperwork, I assume the technical committee bought the minor variation story and did not DSQ the boats. Hopefully they had a way to sanction the sailmaker.... at least he should have submitted the material to the technical committee before the worlds.

+1... damnit!

If sailmakers are going to build sails out of materials not on the approved list, should/could they be required to submit to the class the new material specifications to show that it is not a game changing fabric and is within the spirit of the law. The class can then give conditional approval AHEAD OF TIME for the new fabric to be used until the rules can be officially ammended to allow the new fabric. IMHO, this would eliminate situtions like the one that developed at worlds.

At the risk of continuing yet another tangent (this really needs its own thread now)...

Mark & Ding:

OK, now I'm officially confused. If there is a clear list of what IS approved, and a clear process of how to get on that list; "spirit clauses", etc. shouldn't matter. The boats should have been protested by another competitor or by the RC (via measurer report), and the IJ should have DSQd them.

You're seriously suggesting to take a sailmaker's application and claim of equality to equal an anticipated rubber stamp by an international class?

What happens after the regatta if the class rejects the application? Again, this is an international class with ISAF requirements to be met for making such changes.

This would turn into a nightmare for local regattas, with less-than-IJ quality PCs.

Mike

You are Right....

This is a Solomon like ruling... not a ruling from the book.

FYI, the class does not want to reject better material.... they want to stop crazy costs or game changing innovation.... They hew to the limited development philosophy.

If you take the limited development principal... what is the point of DSQ'ing some sailors who broke the rule... but next week, after the technical meeting report is approved... they would not have broken the rule?

I don't see this ruling as opening a big can of worms.... but some a hole could view this ruling as an opening to try to push something the next time... I would trust the technical committee to see the BS and cut the idiot off at the knees.

Could the original protestor appeal this ruling to ISAF?... probably... but why move from a legit protest... to being major a hole to make your point.

Mike,

Just be clear, I'm against the rubber stamp method and my thoughts are in line with Karl's. My +1 on Mark's post was because he pretty much summed it up for me. It does NOT appear he is advocating a rubber stamp process under the 'sprit of the rule' directive. If anything he too is against any 'rubber stamp' solution because of the Tornado lessons learned.

But I could be completely wrong in my interpretation of Mark's post, it happens from time to time.

Damn I did interpret your post incorrectly.

There is no way forgiveness vs. permission is good for the class, this begins to divide the class and give the perception that those in the know (the elite) will have access to materials and goods the rest of us (the peasants) don’t have access to. The rules are there to protect the class and they need to applied equally to all. How the heck would a cert even be valid if the sails material isn’t even on the approved list? Sorry guys… apply/enforce the rules, if the rules are broken fix the rules, we need to quit being lazy and do the right thing.

Besides there is absolutely no need for the class to be on the bleeding edge so what is this great urgency to use materials that aren’t on the approved list?

Dave... two points... The Tornado class had no rule on cloth material.... the loophole was exploited... What made it a fairness and competition issue was that the other teams could not purchase the cuben material until after the games. THIS last fact was the issue.

The protest went to the Class technical committee.... I would not call that a rubber stamp. A rubber stamp would have been the OA or the PC making the decision. Now the fine print may give the original protest an avenue to appeal... At best... you will force the class to write lots of rules to manage the clock.... What's the point with respect to the big picture... It does not sound like the sail cloth is out of bounds price wise and other sailmakers could make their own sails with the cloth for sale to other racers.



Ah.... the guy who bought the sail wants the latest stuff for the event that matters... He will have it for two more years... Buying last year's design / material would burn... (see Nacra 20 sail debate)

I stick with the judgement needed standard!

If the class thought the SOB was cheating and his success was not fairly earned even after the technical committee ruling... they could and should jeer him off the podium.

I like the rules... I respect the judgment needed.

"If you take the limited development principal... what is the point of DSQ'ing some sailors who broke the rule... but next week, after the technical meeting report is approved... they would not have broken the rule?"

Um, YES the rule that was in effect at the time of the regatta was broken!

Call me conservative, but I really do see a slippery slope.

Sorry, but class technical committee does not equal class (and ISAF) approval.

For very good reasons, our sport is dictated by letter of the law. Spirit is nice, but letter is less likely to wind up being overturned on appeal.

BTW, assuming that there was a properly constituted IJ at this event, their decision would actually not be subject to appeal. That could certainly open a barrel of monkeys for an equipment issue.

Mike

So sailor X has a sail made from material not on the approved list because the loft they have chosen considers the approved materials list a guideline rather than a rule. Sailor Y used a different loft that will only build sails from the approved list because... well... they want to build class legal sails and they assume all lofts play by the rules. So not "everybody" has access to the unapproved material for their sails. Those sail makers that play by the rules are punished for doing the right thing and those that skirt the rules are rewarded. Is that really how we want to see the rules enforced?

Again, what is the big urgency to use materials NOT on the approved list? In my opinion it does the class more harm to be lenient than strict.

Mark come on, you cannot compare the N20 situation to the illegal sail material at Worlds, the two issues are light years apart. I will never support an environment where the rules are bent/broken to support a real or perceived equipment edge. This is about finding the best sailor not the best equipment (and the debate goes on) and I supposed this is where the line in the sand will be drawn within the class. Those that believe that the competition is about finding who has the greater talent as opposed to finding someone that may have bent or blurred the rules to gain an equipment edge. It's just sad that bending/breaking the rules is such an accepted part of the game by so many under the guise of "good judgment". Someone’s definition of good judgment is easily another’s definition of corruption. Only a strict interpretation will keep everything transparent and equal for all.

My question would be "If the matieral does not offer some sort of advantage, why use it?" If it does offer an advantage, it is an advantage that sailors following the rules did not have.

Dave and Mike, you make excellent points. I can't fault the reasoning... The rank and file at the regatta did not raise a stink (as far as we know). Sail cloth is evolutionary... I suspect that this tempest... is truly in a tea cup. The cuben fiber thing was disruptive and destructive for a non America's Cup Class. Since that example, I don't know (heard of) of any other cloth controversies (really ignorant on this one). I am willing to trust the judgment of class officials on this one and write it off as just another fall out from the Tornado Class scandals.

An assumption that should simply be a given in this debate! Why risk the sh!t storm if the reward isn't there?

The N20 point was just mentioned to point out that the consumer does not want to buy old crap.... that is it.. no relationship to rules at any event. Forcing you to purchase old crap is not a good policy.

I truly do not believe the sailors in question are looking to get an unfair edge... Small sailmakers buy the sail cloth in a bolt... they are not going to buy a bolt of old stuff when they can buy the latest version. The sail maker is selling his design and service but he is not going to screw himself with having left over material that he can't sell....
Remember it is a limited development class... being better is GOOD... being crazy $$$ would be judged illegal because it violated the class philosophy. If it was not available to all the racers... that would be UNFAIR.

You are right... the bottom line is that it is illegal... It is unlikely to be unfair... Judgement was used.

Mark this isn't the first equipment related issue... remember the Shockwave? I wanted a clear and decisive message sent then but in my opinion the class fell short (that is just my opinion as a class member not the chair). So, to see yet another equipment related issue pop up for the second year in a row makes me uneasy. I see this issue as a trend as opposed to an isolated incident.

AH.... got it.... a potentially bad trend... Your call!

I got my own issues with the A class.... I understand worrisome trends!

Fine, go to the class and get approval, what's the big freaking deal? When the loft get's the new materials catalog they can petition the class... done! Why make it a suprise at the most important regatta of the year? And again, this should have never been a surprise and should have been caught when the sails were measured.

In my opinion good judgement was not used from the time the cert was approved to the time the protest was finalized. Everyone involved didn't want to be responsible for tossing the top teams. The sailors and the lofts know what is approved and what isn't! Would the same ruling have been made for a team in the silver fleet?

I deliberately did not check who the protested parties were.
Once you do know who they are... you have a tough time keeping the issues clear... Given the limited facts... the decision could be good judgment. Alternatively, you could just say the good ol boys are doing their thing..SNAFU!

If you think the decision is a function of the names involved... now you are challenging the integrity of the class leaders. That is a real problem... good luck.

My point with that comment is, if the rules are followed and enforced blindly then the integrity of everyone involved is NEVER called into question. The moment you begin to think you know better than the rules the integrity of those involved is immediately called into question.

Gotta agree with Ding here.

Mark, I too agree that judgement needs to be applied, but that is primarily needed when the rules are UNclear.

From the USSAILING website: One of the main training points for judges is to: "1.Interpret the RRS and other rules as they are written, not as you think they should be written or as it was intended that they be written."

To simplify this (a bit)...

In the Tornado example, there was no rule excluding the material, but there was a fairness issue. In this case, a judgement call was needed to EXCLUDE the material.

In the F18 example, there is a list of what IS allowed, everything else is NOT allowed. In my opinion, judgement about "it's sort of similar" has no place at the table. Fairness should never have entered the discussion, it was an illegal material, period.

Mike

The F18 class has set itself up as 1 of if not the premier 2 up racing cat class. This means that there will be more and more pressure to “develop” advantages for racing, like it or not. Some of these attempts will be within the current rule set and many will push the boundaries, or even show up as cases of “cheating” whether by design or accident.

The class rules in the F18 were purposely written to be restrictive with the stated intent it would prevent cost escalations and equalize the racing. These are rules written with great intent, but it can be argued rather easily they can provide a false sense of security and can even be proved the opposite effect and make things more expensive.

Any open formula class is going to involve development. The costs for new models, sail developments etc are significant and will be transferred in 1 way or the other to the buyers of these boats. While there are a lot of benefits in getting better and faster boats over time, the costs are there. In many instances creating “development” and marketing model changes in a very restrictive environment adds more expense than in an open architecture. The class may not want it, but the builders and suppliers live off of selling an advantage.

If a certain material does not show up on the approved materials list, this does not mean that a material necessarily is more expensive than the ones listed. New building materials could provide better and cheaper boats in theory. The Shockwave instance is a great example where the rule did nothing to protect the class or racing integrity, but can be argued hurt the class. (at least hurt people who were involved in the class and adding to the class) These builders used a locally produced and supplied structurally equivalent material that happened to not be on the approved list. Meanwhile the core materials listed as approved by the class have gone through at least 5 process and material changes, so they other than the brand name barely represent a fixed reference point of equality.

Yes if it is written down it has to be followed or the favoritism issue etc will become rampant. Over documentation and specification though is society wide problem. The $500 hammer cost that much because some guy in a room wrote a specification that when followed made the hammer cost that much to produce.

Before the trolls fire off here; I am not in favor or against the F18 rules here and only refer to it because it is an F18 thread. This is bash on rules in general. One would like to think the world capable of operating under the catch-all of "the spirit of the rule" or fairness or whatever, but somebody somewhere s going to show up and F it up everytime.

I understand... The real world is a B tch and the integrity issues can come up. But it does not mean that your integrity is corrupted either.

Again, If the sail material would be approved after the regatta...What is the just decision?

No doubt...sorting out illegal from legal.. Fair from unfair and just from unjust in a restricted development class involving the top class sailors could lead to very different outcomes based on what you value.

Legal vs Illegal?... Not Legal!... It is a technical violation of the material approval rule.

Fair vs Unfair? ... So long as all sailmakers COULD have built a technically illegal sail and anyone could have gotten one from this or any other sailmaker.... Probably Fair on the Race course in this limited development class.

Just or un-Just?.. generally god gets to do the justice thing... but I support a just decision by the class to ignore the technical failure to get prior approval.

I certainly see your point and have a lot of sympathy..
(Your state's jury just did the just versus legal thing with that bimbo in the child murder trial)

Ah (for the record).... but this could not be done... no rules on material... or the principal that everyone should be able to purchase the raw materials... using Unobtainium was not illegal. So... anything goes! The loophole resulted in a non level playing field in my view... ISAF could just grit their teeth and learn the lesson for the next time.

Fortunately, the F18 class has learned a lot from the T experience.... I don't see the F18 sail material issue as cheating (like I did the T's)

Legal? Fair? Just? Hell of a debate!

David totally agree with you. The rules must be followed in the strictest sense.

What was the sailmakers reason for using the material? Did they say?

Yeah that whole, the supplier was right down the road and it's cheaper so it's okay excuse 1 - is NOT the point and 2 - Why couldn't the builder have come to the class and petitioned for the material to be added? WHAT'S THE BIG FREAKING DEAL!? If the Shockwave would not have been holed at Worlds last year would the builder have come to the class...ever!? In fact PVC is stated as being cheaper and stiffer in comparison to the approved core materials, so again the builders that are playing by the rules are punished and those skirting the rules are rewarded (until they get busted). Still not happy with how that one played out.

Matt, you're a builder/supplier so naturally you will have a bias to a more relaxed rule environment. Which is another reason why I'm not totally comfortable with builders and sail makers on the F18 technical committee, it's a bit like having the foxes in the hen house.

Because it offered absolutely no advantage to the currently approved materials... and was cheaper. I totally made that up, but how much do you want to bet...

I think that's pretty obvious . It was illegal at the regatta (unapproved)and it will be legal after it is approved. Cut and dry, it was illegal during Worlds, don't care who used it.

The sails in question were made of an approved cloth, the only issue was that there was some stickyback cloth applied at the tack and clew of the sails that was not on the list.

The cloth is cheaper than the approved ones and there was no performance gain or any other advantage in using the cloth.

My questions,
1 Did the sail maker petition to have this sail cloth approved before the worlds?
2 Did the sail maker build these sails and distrubute them before applying for approval?

I agree that the rules were broken and the scores should not count. Maybe next year someone shows up with painted Carbon spars and just says but they were available a close in price. No body would have known had I not snapped my mast.

It’s not a builder thing with me, I hate over specifying anything. I deal with this every day, where some rule writer felt they needed to be so thorough as to cover every eventuality; they totally missed the point of the rule in the first place.

There was a lot more behind the curtain relative to the Shockwave story, but he was wrong to not research first and at least submit a request. That is the rules and they are written, so have to be followed – I get it; no problem.

A better example is the current life jacket issue in the US. Yes we should require life jackets. But somebody felt they needed to be thorough, so they just could not end with “life Jackets will be worn” they had to include more words and they could not just say “certified” but had to go into even more detail on who’s type and cert would be followed. Now the more common brands for cat friendly vests are all CE branded and technically now illegal for use in many US events due to the over use of words.

Too many laws, too many rules and most are conflicting or useless. That’s my soap box issue of the day.

Tomorrow – Insurance
Day after – Stop lights

When are you going to tackle nuclear proliferation?

Have some?

I am not an F-18 sailor but have read through this thread. Could someone explain to me what the Shockwave issue was and what sailcloth was used without class approval?

thanks,

Shockwave issue was an unapproved core material.
The sail cloth issue was an unapproved material used in sail construction of the Sail Innovation sails used by some of the teams.

From what Macca said it sounds like the reinforcement cloth used int the sails were not on the list of approved materials. I thought it was the spin material but I was not there so im just guessing.

F18 rules

D.3 HULL SHELLS
D.3.1 MATERIALS
(a) The hull shells shall be built from polyester or vinylester resin, glass
fibres, core of PVC or balsa or felt. The combination of wood-epoxy,
injected plastic, which shall not be altered, other than locally for fittings,
and passage of equipment and normal reinforcement. Epoxy glue is
permitted for joining components. Every material that is not expressly
permitted is prohibited.

Since the world there's some rumorous about shockwave..

Shockwave core is Corecell.
Corecell isn't PVC or balsa or felt
So Corecell is prohibited in F18 rules.
Corecell marketing is that it is a better alternative to PVC.

5th place boat filed a request for clarification. (Not a Protest) against.
Second
Ninth
Tenth
Twenty Eight.
Along with several other boats cited.

From Tony on page 6 http://db.tt/Q84gMyV

Black and white. If it is not on the list it is illegal. Does not matter how cheap or expensive, fast or slow it is.

If a sail maker wants to build and F18 sail and supply it to a customer as one, they need to understand the rules from measurment to material specs.

If a class measurer is measuring in the sails, he needs to also understand and follow these rules.

If a sail cloth provider wants their material to be elegibale for F18 sail production, they must seek approval from the F18 class.

Do you really need to make it even more simple than this?

It's never that simple...

Not one of the boats at the worlds had sails that complied with the class rules.

So why pick on one sailmaker for a trivial issue when the rest of the fleet was in breach as well?

That's the bigger issue here.

You've gotta back that up with some facts!

Check the rule on batten pocket width. Then go measure yours....

While you are at it you can remove your dyneema trap lines

The traplines are legal.
From the IF18CA december minutes:

F.6.2 CONSTRUCTION
From 1st January 2011
(a) MANDATORY
(1) A forestay and bridles of 1 x19 stranded wire of minimum diameter of 4.0mm.
(2) Shrouds of 1 x 19 stranded wire of minimum diameter of 4.0mm.
(3) Trapeze wires of stranded wire or textile with a minimum diameter of 2.5mm.
(b) OPTIONAL
(1) A pair of diamond wires of 1 x 19 stranded wire of minimum diameter of 4.0mm.
The compliance date of 1st January 2011 would give any affected boats 12 months to comply.

Will measure my batten pockets later, you could just be making that up

Minutes from a meeting do not make them rules... The rules we sailed under at Balaton were the current Isaf approved rules. Published 26th April 2010.

Therefore, no dyneema trap lines were legal. Batten pockets on all boats are illegal and 1x7 3mm sidestays etc were still legal.

New rules are yet to be put in place and as such the regatta was governed by the April 2010 set.

I think the main difference here is that the trap lines will certainly be legal by 1-1-2012 as it says in the minutes (vote was unanimous), AFAIK this is not the case with the cloth issue.

The rules are the rules.... So we either sail to them as they are written or we all do whatever we like...

As a bit of reality here: there is no advantage in using the sticky cloth In The patches, but saving 500 grams in your rig from dyneema trap lines is a clear advantage. So as per the rules current for the event: who is more wrong??

There are plenty of boats breaching current rules and even the yet to be released rules and if the builders of these boats want to keep throwing stones at competitors they should expect a few big ones thrown back at them..

What made the batten pockets illegal?
Also could we get clearification on exactly what was the illegal cloth and how was it used?

Why weren't there more protests? Because everyone was in violation?