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Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #235712
08/03/11 07:09 PM
08/03/11 07:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,066
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline
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cyberspeed  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2003
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Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
Hi Tawd, I can find a lot of info on the A & C Classes but I can't find the specs on the International B class catamaran. Does the Tornado still fit the rules. No since in recreating a class that already exhists, just give it new life. I still think they should change their effort back to F20.


craig van eaton
Supercat 20
TEAM CYBERSPEED
www.TeamCyberspeed.com
Endurance Series
www.SailSeries.com
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: cyberspeed] #235714
08/03/11 09:34 PM
08/03/11 09:34 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,222
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,222
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
The B class was what the tornado was built for. It then dominated the class so well that it became almost a one design from the box rule. That's why you don't hear much about it.
Any 20' x8'6" boat can comptete in what they are trying to create with F-20 or o20 , or whatever. Just because the N-20 is the newest boat relegated to the DBS it doesn't mean other boats couldn't also have a fighting chance. Hobie 20s, nacra6.0, etc
Personally I think the baby got thrown out with the bathwater by changing weights and making no min crew weights.
All that needed to be done was to open up the sails and soft goods to any sail loft while keeping the area of the sails the same.No messing with the hulls and foils.
Todd


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #235727
08/04/11 08:59 AM
08/04/11 08:59 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 302
Daytona Beach Florida
O
orphan Offline
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orphan  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 302
Daytona Beach Florida
Todd,
I think the tornado's new sail plan takes it out of B Class. But then the tornado sport is only rated marginally faster than the N20(and that is with the best sailors in the world setting the rating) making them pretty equal boats. It's not the beam it's the entire package.
What makes the F18 class work well is that most boats are within a narrow performance window. With what you are proposing the boats would be all over the place. If you want even class racing you have to have an even class of boats. No matter what you do to an H20 you are not going to get it to compete with an equally equipped N20. The hull designs are on a different level.

Last edited by orphan; 08/04/11 09:00 AM.
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: orphan] #235728
08/04/11 09:46 AM
08/04/11 09:46 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Jeff is spot on with the H20 and N20... totally different animals.

Oh BTW, I got on an N20 last weekend and did a bit of double trapped spin reaching...F!@# ME! that boat is made for that sh!t, I'd forget what a hoot it is. Next time one of you guys start bitching about an F18 sticking to you on a tight spin reach you are so going to get a boot squarely in the nuts! Do some double trapped spin reaching on an F18 and then tell me which one you'd rather be on. He!!, you're number should be dropped just on principle!

Disclaimer: Just poking a little fun don't get too spun up. Besides I'm really just talking to THart.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: orphan] #235730
08/04/11 10:58 AM
08/04/11 10:58 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
TeamChums Offline
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TeamChums  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
Quote
tornado sport is only rated marginally faster than the N20(and that is with the best sailors in the world setting the rating) making them pretty equal boats. It's not the beam it's the entire package.


The N20 rating was set when Smyth was racing it. And yes, the beam has a huge part in it. In light air, the boats are pretty close but when it picks up past 8knots, the T is much faster.


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: TeamChums] #235732
08/04/11 11:52 AM
08/04/11 11:52 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Lee, Randy never did any serious time on the N20, Struble is the same story. Struble drove for W.F. Oliver in the beginning and quickly moved on. I doubt their presence had any significant impact on the number. It would have been the likes of Shafer, Pitt, Wallace/James, Newkirk, Casey and possibly some MidWest teams that would have had the biggest impact on the number. Great sailors but mortals and beatable if you wanted it bad enough.

Reminder: Only open buoy racing data with wind speed is used to adjust the number for DPN.




David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: TeamChums] #235733
08/04/11 12:31 PM
08/04/11 12:31 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 302
Daytona Beach Florida
O
orphan Offline
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orphan  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 302
Daytona Beach Florida
The T sport is only faster over 8knts if the crew weight is under 310. Sail the T at the same min weight at the N20 and you need to get over 12 for it to be competetive. My T has a tappered alum mast and I am not sure how much more power you get out of the carbon T stick. We sail our's at 365(crew weight) and going to weather I need 14+ to double trap. Anything less am I am footing way to much.

Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: orphan] #235734
08/04/11 02:50 PM
08/04/11 02:50 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,197
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
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Tornado  Offline
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Posts: 1,197
Vancouver, BC
Originally Posted by orphan
The T sport is only faster over 8knts if the crew weight is under 310. Sail the T at the same min weight at the N20 and you need to get over 12 for it to be competetive. My T has a tappered alum mast and I am not sure how much more power you get out of the carbon T stick. We sail our's at 365(crew weight) and going to weather I need 14+ to double trap. Anything less am I am footing way to much.


Then I think you must be doing something wrong on the setup. At light winds, the T is actually a little slower than N20's...less sail area and centerboards not giving sufficient lift). Once the modern T starts lifting a hull (~8-10 kts), it will beat a similar skilled team on the N20 around the buoys. Beyond 12-14 kts the N20 (like most 8'6" boats) is trying to depower..while the T is just beginning to think of inching on some downhaul. The wind speed adjusted Portsmouth numbers support this as does my real world experience racing loads of N20's.

The T class does quite well with no minimum crew weight since the sails can be tweaked within the measurements to tune in more or less power for a teams weight & expected wind range. This makes for a more mix body types across the fleet. Mitch Booth is a big boy and does extremely well on average. As do the lightweights.



Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: David Ingram] #235736
08/04/11 04:11 PM
08/04/11 04:11 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by David Ingram
Jeff is spot on with the H20 and N20... totally different animals.

Oh BTW, I got on an N20 last weekend and did a bit of double trapped spin reaching...F!@# ME! that boat is made for that sh!t, I'd forget what a hoot it is. Next time one of you guys start bitching about an F18 sticking to you on a tight spin reach you are so going to get a boot squarely in the nuts! Do some double trapped spin reaching on an F18 and then tell me which one you'd rather be on. He!!, you're number should be dropped just on principle!

Disclaimer: Just poking a little fun don't get too spun up. Besides I'm really just talking to THart.


I unequivocally second that notion. While the F18 might be able to run the kite higher and faster, it is a tedious ride to keep speed in wind and waves when cracked off from a pure upwind or downwind angle. What you may think is a smile from the F18 sailors as they go by is probably more like a grimace as they fight the constant pitching momentum. You are either too far forward or too far back and the big square head carries the top of the rig forward hard and it's hard to take it out of the equation on those angles. The 20 is a comfort machine when cracked off either on a deep jib or tight spin reach. A simple sail change to flatten out the 20 would make it a comfort and speed demon in those conditions.


Jake Kohl
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: orphan] #235932
08/08/11 10:44 PM
08/08/11 10:44 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,222
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,222
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by orphan
Todd,
I think the tornado's new sail plan takes it out of B Class. But then the tornado sport is only rated marginally faster than the N20(and that is with the best sailors in the world setting the rating) making them pretty equal boats. It's not the beam it's the entire package.
What makes the F18 class work well is that most boats are within a narrow performance window. With what you are proposing the boats would be all over the place. If you want even class racing you have to have an even class of boats. No matter what you do to an H20 you are not going to get it to compete with an equally equipped N20. The hull designs are on a different level.


Just to be clear I'm not proposing any of this. All I wanted was to open the sailmakers while keeping the overall dimensions the same. That's been my Gospel for 3or 4 years now.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #236083
08/10/11 02:17 PM
08/10/11 02:17 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 930
Solomon's Island, MD
S
samc99us Offline
old hand
samc99us  Offline
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S

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 930
Solomon's Island, MD
I fully agree with Todd that the best way to keep the class alive at this point is to have a set of overall sail measurements (same format as F18) and open building up to those set of measurements. Buy from your favorite loft. Works perfectly fine in F18/F16 classes. I also don't see this destroying the class-you aren't proposing adding a 3rd sail etc. as has been done in the past (before I ever started sailing, and yes I can read history), your current N20 sails are still regatta legal and probably pretty fast while the Tybee/GT300 etc. guys can buy the sails they feel are cut best for the type of sailing they do (100nm on a beam or close reach).

As far as double trap reaching on the N20, I quickly formed my own opinion that mirrors Jake's and Davids. I've out-climbed and gone faster than a decently sailed F18 on the N20, both boats double trapped spin reaching, and I'm by no means as good as most of the people in this thread. Maybe N20 skippers are just scared to drive hard from the wire with the spinnaker up?

Building a new class open to other boats probably isn't going to work. F20c>>N20>>N6.0 etc., racing all these boats under the F20 rule is not going to result in some sort of even one design racing. You'd need to build a set of rules and get manufacturers to build to those rules, not the other way around.


Scorpion F18
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: samc99us] #236087
08/10/11 03:03 PM
08/10/11 03:03 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,844
42.904444 N; 88.008586 W
Todd_Sails Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Todd_Sails  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,844
42.904444 N; 88.008586 W
Keep talking.

All this N20 talk has got me still considering picking up one of the ones locally near me.

But my barometer is still leaning toward an F18, or even an F16.


F-18 Infusion
#626- SOLD it!

'Long Live the Legend of Chris Kyle'
Re: F20na Box Rule Set Posted [Re: samc99us] #236383
08/16/11 10:11 AM
08/16/11 10:11 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 887
Crofton, MD
Chris9 Offline
old hand
Chris9  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 887
Crofton, MD
BTW, any updates on where the new rule is going? F20 or N20 with open sailmaker?

Quote
Maybe N20 skippers are just scared to drive hard from the wire with the spinnaker up?


Fine. You had better get on me harder next time...AND hit the spin pole just before I do next time to cushion it...


Chris Allen
Nacra 20 Gertie
www.wrcra.org
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