| F18 Rule Amendments 2011 #238541 10/03/11 01:25 PM 10/03/11 01:25 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram OP
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David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011
[Re: rhodysail]
#238606 10/04/11 01:11 PM 10/04/11 01:11 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram OP
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Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA | At the AGM the USF18 Prescriptions were voted out. Time to leave your speed pucks on the the beach.
Watch your email for the AGM meeting minutes this week.
Dave
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011
[Re: David Ingram]
#238695 10/06/11 10:13 AM 10/06/11 10:13 AM |
Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 297 rexdenton
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Posts: 297 | Dave, Seriously? No GPS? Please confirm.
Nacra F18 #856
| | | Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011
[Re: rexdenton]
#238705 10/06/11 12:36 PM 10/06/11 12:36 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California John Williams
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Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California | I'm not surprised - the straw poll in Racine was pretty heavily in favor of devices that display time and heading, but not speed. That pretty much knocks out anything with a GPS in it.
John Williams
- The harder you practice, the luckier you get - Gary Player, pro golfer
After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
| | | Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011
[Re: John Williams]
#238706 10/06/11 12:49 PM 10/06/11 12:49 PM |
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Posts: 129 Austin, TX | Hmmm, as I remember the meeting in Racine, the question was display of VMG not speed.
Bo Kersey Corsair 31-1D 276 | | | Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011
[Re: BoK]
#238732 10/07/11 07:55 AM 10/07/11 07:55 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram OP
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Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA | Hmmm, as I remember the meeting in Racine, the question was display of VMG not speed. John is correct. Time and heading is what was expressed by the straw poll.
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011
[Re: rexdenton]
#238733 10/07/11 07:59 AM 10/07/11 07:59 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram OP
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Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA | Dave, Seriously? No GPS? Please confirm. Yes Seriously, please refer to the class rules regarding the use of GPS enabled devices. They are permitted for distance/adventure races but not buoy. Wording regarding the use of GPS enabled devices was submitted by the technical committee over a year ago but I have seen no action by the IF18CA to rule one way or the other. Now you know all I know.
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011
[Re: orphan]
#238734 10/07/11 08:05 AM 10/07/11 08:05 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram OP
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Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA | You can disable speed on the speedpuck. Still not allowed? Depends on if you think the "I didn't have it enabled" argument will hold up in a hearing. If you think it's solid then you can use your disabled GPS device, if you don't think the argument will hold up in the room then you'll be leaving it on the beach. Of course your results may vary depending on who is hearing the protest. If you get a hard butt like me you'll get flicked.
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011
[Re: David Ingram]
#238748 10/07/11 09:45 AM 10/07/11 09:45 AM |
Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 932 Solomon's Island, MD samc99us
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Posts: 932 Solomon's Island, MD | This seems like a silly issue. VMG is nice, particularly on a super long course where you may not see the top mark, but really this requires you sailing the course and grabbing those mark points. In my experience, you don't have time in a bouy race to worry about GPS data if the breeze is up.
My point being, I have GPS equipment for distance racing that would work fine for around the buoys. I don't own a $400 TackTick. Should I? Yes, but since that is the only non-GPS enabled device on the market that gives you heading, is this really a fair rule? IMO, no, it is simply forcing people to buy one manufacturers product...
Scorpion F18
| | | Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011
[Re: David Ingram]
#238752 10/07/11 10:00 AM 10/07/11 10:00 AM |
Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 297 rexdenton
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Posts: 297 | From a compliance/regulatory capacity, absolute mandates are better for both the adjudicators and the participants. With Compasses that can have the GPS/VMG/Speed turned off, a de facto mixed standard for compliance is created, if the rule language is vaguely described.
I'd be happier if the rule language is black or white, (no wiggle room). They are or they are not legal.
Also, I can only find 2010 rules. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place for the 2011 rules. The amendments don't mention anything about GPS as far as I can see. I remain confused as to what represents the status quo, (and have been now for about a year).
Last edited by rexdenton; 10/07/11 10:01 AM.
Nacra F18 #856
| | | Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011
[Re: rexdenton]
#238755 10/07/11 10:11 AM 10/07/11 10:11 AM |
Joined: Jul 2010 Posts: 172 Anacortes Sloansailing
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Posts: 172 Anacortes | The speedpuck doesn't give you heading, it gives you COG. This is a function of GPS. So, even with the speed turned off the COG function of the speedpuck is still using GPS data. So is this not allowed?
Anacortes Rigging.com Rigging and Yacht Services
| | | Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011
[Re: Sloansailing]
#238757 10/07/11 10:19 AM 10/07/11 10:19 AM |
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Posts: 172 Anacortes | Just checked the rules and by my estimation Speedpucks are not allowed at all, as they receive data for both speed (SOG) and "heading" (COG). (Rule C.5.1-b-3)
Last edited by Sloansailing; 10/07/11 10:19 AM.
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| | | Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011
[Re: rexdenton]
#238759 10/07/11 10:36 AM 10/07/11 10:36 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram OP
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Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA | What we have to go by is what is on the IF18CA website: Rules Download Page Yes, the rules need some work and the good news is their is a working committee scrubbing the rules right now. Replacing things that have been inadvertently dropped, clarifying the unclear.... Now I'm not guaranteeing there still won't be questions once the scrub is done, I'm sure this will be an iterative process. From what I've been told it's pretty common for class rules to get a little "inaccurate" when the rules move to the ISAF format. Bottom line is it's being addressed. Sam as far as your comments go, the class prescriptions covered the Speed Puck and the class voted to drop the prescriptions. Fair or unfair, like or don't like, the USF18 class has made it's desire known on the issue. Rex as far is the GPS issue being unclear... don't agree but that is just me.
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011
[Re: Dlennard]
#238760 10/07/11 10:37 AM 10/07/11 10:37 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram OP
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Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA | If F18 is trying to save cost it does not seem so with having to buy the more expensive compass only. I guess none of the boats at the NA's were legal with all of them having the tracking devices? Good point Dave, and an issue that was brought up at the Worlds last year. I'm confident the tracking devices can be easily handled.
Last edited by David Ingram; 10/07/11 10:42 AM.
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011
[Re: David Ingram]
#238762 10/07/11 11:06 AM 10/07/11 11:06 AM |
Joined: Jul 2010 Posts: 172 Anacortes Sloansailing
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Posts: 172 Anacortes | If F18 is trying to save cost it does not seem so with having to buy the more expensive compass only. I guess none of the boats at the NA's were legal with all of them having the tracking devices? Good point Dave, and an issue that was brought up at the Worlds last year. I'm confident the tracking devices can be easily handled. Just drop "for long distance courses" from Rule C.5.1-b-4 and its done. Allowed or required by NOR...
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| | | Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011
[Re: Sloansailing]
#238768 10/07/11 12:27 PM 10/07/11 12:27 PM |
Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 297 rexdenton
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Posts: 297 | Under the 2010 C5, any GPS technically 'receives data' in the form of satellite fix. By the strictest interpretation any GPS is not compliant.
Is this correct?
If this is not correct, the rule is unclear.
Nacra F18 #856
| | | Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011
[Re: rexdenton]
#238771 10/07/11 01:10 PM 10/07/11 01:10 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram OP
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Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA | Rex, by the strictest interpretation any GPS enabled device is not compliant, and yes that is how I read it. But, I'm just another competitor just like you, I have no authority in how the rules are interpreted.
As sloansailing pointed out, if the three words "long distance courses" were struck the issue could be handled at the event level. I want to remind everyone again, the USF18 class voted to drop the prescriptions which dropped the ability to use the Speedpuck so... there are more than a few that are okay with the no GPS rule.
C.5.1 FOR USE (a) MANDATORY (1) One righting line, minimum 4 metres long and 10 mm minimum diameter. (2) One magnetic steering compass. (b) OPTIONAL (1) Magnetic compasses. (2) Mechanical timing devices. Mechanical wind indicators. (3) Electronic devices that provide timing, heading, and heading memory but which do not transmit or receive data. (4) When required by the Notice of Race for long distance courses, organisers may require further equipment, such as VHF, mobile phone, GPS or tracking devices, Emergency Positioning Indicating radio beacons (EPIRB) devices, knife, mirror, whistle, flares, flashlights, first aid set.
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011
[Re: David Ingram]
#238772 10/07/11 01:26 PM 10/07/11 01:26 PM |
Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 297 rexdenton
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Posts: 297 | David, thanks. I know you have no ability to change the status, but I appreciate your perspective. So don't sweat it.
FWIW I asked the same thing a year ago, and got no satisfactory answer then, either. I know people (young and not of unlimited means) that have spent $600+ on a device, and they/we still don't know if their purchase is compliant or not.
As for handling exceptions at the event level, my opinion is that for buoy racing, local rule caveats should be limited to unchangeable realities, or atypical event restrictions, whereas equipment restrictions should be clearly mandated to restrict racing variability in the fleet.
I don't care either way. I just want to know what can or cannot put on an F18. I'd hate to be the guy that uses an instrument as a matter of performance, only to have that element removed in another event, or to be the guy that loses ground to a team with a technical advantage. Either situation is not a good one from the standpoint of competition.
Last edited by rexdenton; 10/07/11 02:37 PM.
Nacra F18 #856
| | | Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011
[Re: wildtsail]
#238793 10/08/11 09:18 AM 10/08/11 09:18 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California John Williams
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Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California | (3) Electronic devices that provide timing, heading, and heading memory but which do not transmit or receive data.
(emphasis mine)
I'm dissatisfied with the outcome due to the paucity of options that don't incorporate modern (1980s) technology. I mean to say that I was happy the Puck came out for a reasonable price, since the TacTic is such a poor, yet expensive, option. I get what the rule is intended to avoid. Doesn't change the limited real-world options for affordable, reliable, durable heading devices.
John Williams
- The harder you practice, the luckier you get - Gary Player, pro golfer
After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
| | | Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011
[Re: wildtsail]
#238804 10/09/11 09:05 AM 10/09/11 09:05 AM |
Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 297 rexdenton
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Posts: 297 | No one is holding a gun to your head and saying you have to buy an expensive tacktick...
no one said anyting about the purchase, just the vagueness about the rule, and the relative equivocation about the ruling body to be clear. Hoping that a rule solves itself, is not a strategy.
You can buy a $2 wrist compass and be compliant. The majority of the top of the fleet at NA's did not have any electronics on board, so if you want to argue that you need to buy these gadgets to be competitive think again. I have a tacktick and I hardly ever sail with it because in most conditions it's more of a distraction than anything. I can tell a header without having big numbers to tell me.
You, and the fleet leaders have lots more experience and time on the water, than guys like me and Richard. I think you may agree that we can see lift downwind, but there are those of us that get lost looking for headers and lifts upwind, and calling oscillations upwind so I am looking to begin sorting this out a little better. Which device I buy, I may rely upon to help me with this aspect of our technique upwind. Furthermore, as Dave points out, being able to turn off GPS may be adjudicated differently under protest, depending on the judge. Rules should seek to avoid double standards of interpretation. As far as the trackers goes... they were cheap boost cell phones that only sent signals. Doesn't the wording say receive GPS?
Boost phones have an internal GPS (as do all cell phones, in order to be emergency 911 compliant), which is how they can track in the first place, so by the strictest definition, this statement is not true.
Last edited by rexdenton; 10/09/11 09:18 AM.
Nacra F18 #856
| | | Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011
[Re: rexdenton]
#238807 10/09/11 11:18 AM 10/09/11 11:18 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California John Williams
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Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California | Hi Dave -
The GPS rule is in there to prevent things like the Rock Box and other devices that signal where the line is, and devices that can signal when you're on a layline. The intention is to keep a race from becoming a video game. I get it, I just feel that the Puck does none of these things, but it does give me a durable, cost-effective unit that I can change the batteries in and download after a day of sailing to provide better debrief material. While sailing, it gives me a very visible and simple display of heading OR speed (have to pick one), which I have found useful.
Anyway - slippery slope and all... so I guess it is off the boat.
John Williams
- The harder you practice, the luckier you get - Gary Player, pro golfer
After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
| | | Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011
[Re: Tony_F18]
#238863 10/10/11 02:49 PM 10/10/11 02:49 PM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | I would venture that it's more important to judge what the wind WILL do (lift/header) versus what it IS doing on your boat at that particular moment.
So the onboard compass helps show what is happening NOW, but you still have to get your head out of the boat and up the course.
And on the tracker issue, is any of that position information transmitted back to the boat in order to inform the crews? Or is it merely tracking for the purposes of the audience? If there is a delay in the position updates, I don't see how it would be of much value to racers in a short (buoy) race, and shouldn't therefore be banned...
Jay
| | | Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#238872 10/10/11 06:23 PM 10/10/11 06:23 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California John Williams
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Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California | Hey Jay -
Timing and a compass allow you to judge between oscillating or persistent shifts, a la Dr. Walker. These two scenarios are the base of the pillars of strategy.
John Williams
- The harder you practice, the luckier you get - Gary Player, pro golfer
After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
| | | Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011
[Re: John Williams]
#238992 10/13/11 09:50 AM 10/13/11 09:50 AM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | Hey Jay -
Timing and a compass allow you to judge between oscillating or persistent shifts, a la Dr. Walker. These two scenarios are the base of the pillars of strategy.
True, Dub, but that sounds like a lot of time with your head in the boat. You rock stars just "see" the wind. beeeee the wind....nnnnaaanananan
Jay
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