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Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 [Re: David Ingram] #238772
10/07/11 12:26 PM
10/07/11 12:26 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
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rexdenton Offline
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David, thanks. I know you have no ability to change the status, but I appreciate your perspective. So don't sweat it.

FWIW I asked the same thing a year ago, and got no satisfactory answer then, either. I know people (young and not of unlimited means) that have spent $600+ on a device, and they/we still don't know if their purchase is compliant or not.

As for handling exceptions at the event level, my opinion is that for buoy racing, local rule caveats should be limited to unchangeable realities, or atypical event restrictions, whereas equipment restrictions should be clearly mandated to restrict racing variability in the fleet.

I don't care either way. I just want to know what can or cannot put on an F18. I'd hate to be the guy that uses an instrument as a matter of performance, only to have that element removed in another event, or to be the guy that loses ground to a team with a technical advantage. Either situation is not a good one from the standpoint of competition.

Last edited by rexdenton; 10/07/11 01:37 PM.

Nacra F18 #856
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 [Re: rexdenton] #238790
10/07/11 08:23 PM
10/07/11 08:23 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 756
Newport, RI
wildtsail Offline
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wildtsail  Offline
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Newport, RI
No one is holding a gun to your head and saying you have to buy an expensive tacktick... You can buy a $2 wrist compass and be compliant.
The majority of the top of the fleet at NA's did not have any electronics on board, so if you want to argue that you need to buy these gadgets to be competitive think again. I have a tacktick and I hardly ever sail with it because in most conditions it's more of a distraction than anything. I can tell a header without having big numbers to tell me.
As far as the trackers goes... they were cheap boost cell phones that only sent signals. Doesn't the wording say receive GPS?

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 [Re: wildtsail] #238793
10/08/11 08:18 AM
10/08/11 08:18 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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John Williams  Offline
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(3) Electronic devices that provide timing, heading, and heading memory but which do not transmit or receive data.

(emphasis mine)

I'm dissatisfied with the outcome due to the paucity of options that don't incorporate modern (1980s) technology. I mean to say that I was happy the Puck came out for a reasonable price, since the TacTic is such a poor, yet expensive, option. I get what the rule is intended to avoid. Doesn't change the limited real-world options for affordable, reliable, durable heading devices.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 [Re: John Williams] #238801
10/09/11 05:47 AM
10/09/11 05:47 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 602
Wilmington,NC
Dlennard Offline
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Dlennard  Offline
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Wilmington,NC
Why is the rule in their? Is it to save cost ? It does not. Is it to not give advantage to some that have different devices? I don't think it makes a difference good sailors are still going to win. It is fun seeing how fast you are going which we will have to guess from now on.

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 [Re: Dlennard] #238803
10/09/11 06:06 AM
10/09/11 06:06 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 602
Wilmington,NC
Dlennard Offline
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Hey I was reading the rules and found this.
C.4.1 MANDATORY
The crew shall wear a personal floatation device to the minimum standard
EN393, ISO 12402-5 (CE 50 Newtons), USCG Type III, or AUS PFD 2.
Does this mean we can wear our Zhik life jackets now since they meet the CE50 Newtons rule? Why do some race rules say you have to wear a USCG approved life jacket instead of just saying you have to follow the USCG rules. My 2 points are
1. If you come from anywhere other than the US you can wear one of the approved
life jackets above, but not if you live in the US.
2. You could carry 2 USCG approved life jackets on your boat but wear one of the
approved above which would meet the USCG rules.

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 [Re: wildtsail] #238804
10/09/11 08:05 AM
10/09/11 08:05 AM
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rexdenton Offline
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Originally Posted by wildtsail
No one is holding a gun to your head and saying you have to buy an expensive tacktick...


no one said anyting about the purchase, just the vagueness about the rule, and the relative equivocation about the ruling body to be clear. Hoping that a rule solves itself, is not a strategy.
Originally Posted by wildtsail


You can buy a $2 wrist compass and be compliant.
The majority of the top of the fleet at NA's did not have any electronics on board, so if you want to argue that you need to buy these gadgets to be competitive think again. I have a tacktick and I hardly ever sail with it because in most conditions it's more of a distraction than anything. I can tell a header without having big numbers to tell me.


You, and the fleet leaders have lots more experience and time on the water, than guys like me and Richard. I think you may agree that we can see lift downwind, but there are those of us that get lost looking for headers and lifts upwind, and calling oscillations upwind so I am looking to begin sorting this out a little better. Which device I buy, I may rely upon to help me with this aspect of our technique upwind. Furthermore, as Dave points out, being able to turn off GPS may be adjudicated differently under protest, depending on the judge. Rules should seek to avoid double standards of interpretation.
Originally Posted by wildtsail

As far as the trackers goes... they were cheap boost cell phones that only sent signals. Doesn't the wording say receive GPS?

Boost phones have an internal GPS (as do all cell phones, in order to be emergency 911 compliant), which is how they can track in the first place, so by the strictest definition, this statement is not true.

Last edited by rexdenton; 10/09/11 08:18 AM.

Nacra F18 #856
Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 [Re: rexdenton] #238807
10/09/11 10:18 AM
10/09/11 10:18 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
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Long Beach, California
Hi Dave -

The GPS rule is in there to prevent things like the Rock Box and other devices that signal where the line is, and devices that can signal when you're on a layline. The intention is to keep a race from becoming a video game. I get it, I just feel that the Puck does none of these things, but it does give me a durable, cost-effective unit that I can change the batteries in and download after a day of sailing to provide better debrief material. While sailing, it gives me a very visible and simple display of heading OR speed (have to pick one), which I have found useful.

Anyway - slippery slope and all... so I guess it is off the boat.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 [Re: John Williams] #238825
10/10/11 05:22 AM
10/10/11 05:22 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Tony_F18 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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As long as these electronic toys are available for everyone I dont see why we should continue banning them.
In fact a Tacktick Racemaster T070 (which almost everyone has now) costs the same a Rockbox or Nauteek unit.
Boats like Melges 24 are allowed to use stuff like this so why cant we?
I also dont believe it will turn sailing into a video game, in fact it might actually improve the overall quality of racing by keeping the fleets tigher together.

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 [Re: Tony_F18] #238863
10/10/11 01:49 PM
10/10/11 01:49 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Naples, FL
I would venture that it's more important to judge what the wind WILL do (lift/header) versus what it IS doing on your boat at that particular moment.

So the onboard compass helps show what is happening NOW, but you still have to get your head out of the boat and up the course.

And on the tracker issue, is any of that position information transmitted back to the boat in order to inform the crews? Or is it merely tracking for the purposes of the audience? If there is a delay in the position updates, I don't see how it would be of much value to racers in a short (buoy) race, and shouldn't therefore be banned...


Jay

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 [Re: waterbug_wpb] #238872
10/10/11 05:23 PM
10/10/11 05:23 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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John Williams  Offline
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Hey Jay -

Timing and a compass allow you to judge between oscillating or persistent shifts, a la Dr. Walker. These two scenarios are the base of the pillars of strategy.



John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 [Re: John Williams] #238891
10/11/11 03:47 AM
10/11/11 03:47 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 246
Kiel, Germany
Baltic Offline
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Baltic  Offline
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Kiel, Germany
Originally Posted by John Williams
a la Dr. Walker.


What do mean by that?


F18: C2 / A-Cat: Minelli
Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 [Re: Baltic] #238901
10/11/11 08:33 AM
10/11/11 08:33 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 172
Anacortes
Sloansailing Offline
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Sloansailing  Offline
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Anacortes
Originally Posted by Baltic
Originally Posted by John Williams
a la Dr. Walker.


What do mean by that?


Stuart Walker. One of the most read (albeit dry...) authors on racing tactics, weather, and psychology. http://www.sailingworld.com/racing/stuart-walker


Anacortes Rigging.com
Rigging and Yacht Services
Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 [Re: Sloansailing] #238929
10/12/11 09:11 AM
10/12/11 09:11 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 120
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maritimesailor Offline
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No speedpuck = step backwards. The Quebec fleet actually has 10 that they give out to random boats every day, then post the resulting tracks during evening dinners and their web sites afterwards so all can learn. Most of us have them as well so we end up being able to look at the entire fleet, plus it is fun during the evening hours. This is a step forward use of technology.

Allow GPS for three things, speed and compass and recording of these metrics for OFF WATER USE.

And if you think laylines, pinging start lines, etc will help you in F18 sailing (small courses), good luck! While you are waiting for your GPS to tell you to tack, I'll be blowing past you at mock ten.

Re: F18 Rule Amendments 2011 [Re: John Williams] #238992
10/13/11 08:50 AM
10/13/11 08:50 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
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Naples, FL
Originally Posted by John Williams
Hey Jay -

Timing and a compass allow you to judge between oscillating or persistent shifts, a la Dr. Walker. These two scenarios are the base of the pillars of strategy.



True, Dub, but that sounds like a lot of time with your head in the boat. You rock stars just "see" the wind.

beeeee the wind....nnnnaaanananan


Jay

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