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Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: pgp] #244262
02/17/12 02:58 PM
02/17/12 02:58 PM
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John Williams Offline
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Originally Posted by pgp
Customarily you thank a board for its service before empaneling a new one.


Oh, I got thanked at the end of my tenure - there are pictures somewhere. Fortunately, I anticipated it and had a change of clothes handy. wink


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
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Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: Jake] #244263
02/17/12 03:05 PM
02/17/12 03:05 PM
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Mark Schneider Offline
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Jake, well before the nuts and bolts of charter boats get sorted out..

Do you even agree with the philosophy.... Do the Cat racers WANT that philosophy for the championship?




crac.sailregattas.com
Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: Mark Schneider] #244265
02/17/12 03:21 PM
02/17/12 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Jake, well before the nuts and bolts of charter boats get sorted out..

Do you even agree with the philosophy.... Do the Cat racers WANT that philosophy for the championship?




That answer depends on what cat racers you ask. You're not going to get universal agreement. The guys that participate in the event will probably side with the type of format that it has been run within (elite event). The "general populous" (for lack of a better term) will probably like the idea of a more open/accessible event...which I think stems from a mis-conception about the event as it has been. It really was accessible. Invites haven't been part of the documented process of the event but became a necessary evil because not all slots were filled through their available openings and the petition bank would run dry. I don't think the accessibility of the event was communicated very well - it certainly wasn't during my tenure and I think that could have had a positive effect on the participant interest. A high level of participation begets higher interest...and that participation doesn't have to be "the elites".


Jake Kohl
Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: brucat] #244266
02/17/12 03:33 PM
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pgp Offline
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You want an elite event with higher levels of participation that don't have to be elite? Just trying to follow the logic.


Pete Pollard
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Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: pgp] #244267
02/17/12 03:53 PM
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I participated in the event in 2005 and came in last. I wasn't anything approaching elite then. I'm not sure what I am now (definitely not yet "elite" but I have a few moments every now and then!). The interest in participation is relatively low so before it can become elite, the general interest in participating in the event needs to increase. You can't just say it "will be elite". The event has to earn it. Elite will come on it's own as long as (in no particular order and without much consideration):

1) slots in the event have high demand
2) the event is executed fairly
3) competition is good
3) a good time is had by all


Jake Kohl
Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: Jake] #244268
02/17/12 03:54 PM
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Mark Schneider Offline
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I understand the old issues... I have looked for solutions for years... we could eventually sort through these issues and change the current system...

I am puzzled what to do about this mission statement. This is a radical new challenge. Truly a good use of the word "transform"

"Transform the U.S. Multihull Championship into the most relevant multihull event in the United States, one that will attract new and upcoming sailors, who will form the nucleus of future US Olympic sailors."

We have juniors who have access to the Hobie 16. We have juniors who have access to F16's. And we don't have all that many of these guys.. So, we need to recruit from dinghy sailors from Yacht Clubs and dinghy sailors who graduate from college.

When you opt for "Olympic pathway"... you are now looking at double handed spin boat championships.

When you say "relevant" the USSA championship could be viewed as part of the US regatta series that leads to signature US event, the ISAF Grade I ... Miami International OCR regatta.

Perhaps you have a US championship in Miami the week before the Miami OCR's that draw in the mixed multihll international teams along with US Sailors... (juniors and all male teams racing in the one design format of the mixed mulithull class)

When you highlight "up and coming"... The petition slots, formerly used to promote "elite" will need to be used to recruit college sailors. Perhaps 1/2 of those petition slots are used to suck in college All Americans who give the cats a try.

Just speculating here.... (this is a mind bender)

Last edited by Mark Schneider; 02/17/12 04:04 PM.

crac.sailregattas.com
Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: Mark Schneider] #244269
02/17/12 03:58 PM
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maybe elite is the wrong word - "premier" is probably more like it. It's not about making it an elitist affair. It's about keeping it as a high caliber championship.


Jake Kohl
Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: brucat] #244271
02/17/12 04:00 PM
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"I am puzzled what to do about this mission statement. This is a radical new challenge. Truly a good use of the word "transform"

Validate it? Could just be exuberance or rhetoric.

Last edited by pgp; 02/17/12 04:00 PM.

Pete Pollard
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Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: Mark Schneider] #244272
02/17/12 04:41 PM
02/17/12 04:41 PM
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"Transform the U.S. Multihull Championship into the most relevant multihull event in the United States, one that will attract new and upcoming sailors, who will form the nucleus of future US Olympic sailors."

Mark, I think you're stuck on thinking that "new and upcoming sailors, who will form the nucleus of future US Olympic sailors" = youth sailors. That's not necessarily true.

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: mbounds] #244273
02/17/12 04:48 PM
02/17/12 04:48 PM
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Mark Schneider Offline
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Quote
Mark, I think you're stuck on thinking that "new and upcoming sailors, who will form the nucleus of future US Olympic sailors" = youth sailors. That's not necessarily true.


no doubt... after my initial choke... I realize the true target here are the 20 something racers with records of accomplishment. Perhaps some kind of championship structure could get some of them sucked over to the dark side.... irrespective of them making an Olympic go of it.

(I am not opposing this idea... I am just trying to figure out how you put this into play)


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: brucat] #244275
02/17/12 05:03 PM
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The staff at US Sailing considers anyone over 30 to be older than what they want to target.

The irony, of course, is that we (and they) all fit into that category (over 30), yet are charged with administering the programs.

To that end, they also want more young people sitting on the various committees and councils.

Don't take any of that as a threat, it's just meant to be a clarification for what they want when looking for the younger perspective.

Mike

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: brucat] #244277
02/17/12 05:56 PM
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That's brilliant! laugh Abandon the demographic you have for one you hope to have.


Last edited by pgp; 02/17/12 05:56 PM.

Pete Pollard
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Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: catandahalf] #244279
02/17/12 06:18 PM
02/17/12 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by catandahalf
Firstly: Let us award Mike, Shannon Bush, Liz Walker, and Jack Geirhart a ton of THANK YOUs for their tireless hours of effort and 'brain strain' in hopes of demonstrating a 'base - up' stlye of Leadership for the catamaran sailors across the Nation. In that regard, I not only say "Congratulations are in order" for them, but I wish to share with this audience something I learned during my journies to Hawai'i that serves as a fine analogy for this pivotal moment in our history.

"Lokahi is mind, body, and soul. To just strengthen your physical self is not enough. To strengthen yourself mentally is not enough. To strengthen yourself spiritually is not enough. To strengthen yourself physically, mentally, and spiritually is Lokahi." Buffalo Keaulana

This philosophy supports the "Ohana," the family. The Hawai'ian culture is based on self - reliance, love, and respect for others in their 'family' Ohana.

May we work together to write this new chapter for multihull sailing in our Free Nation, the United States of America.

Bert Rice, Multihull Championship Committee Chair


If "working together" means taking everyone's opinion from the surveys and crafting a format by the percentage of desires for certain things , then good onya. If "working together" means reading the surveys and then doing what some non-multihull sailor involved with US Sailing wants to do, then why waste everyone's time with the lip service. The trend I see with all of these comments is that the problem is not with the sailors, or the volunteers on the multihull committee, but with US Sailing itself. So it seems the best way to achieve the mission statement would be to not use the words US Sailing in the promotion of the Alter Cup. I thank the Multihull committee for what they do, but detest US Sailing as a whole, and don't think I'm alone. I find it strange how so many people think this and the Olympics is so important to "developing" our sport when in reality 99% of us will never go to an Alter Cup or the Olympics.
There are a whole lot more effective and efficient ways to get people sailing cats.


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Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: brucat] #244280
02/17/12 06:37 PM
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It's as thought USS sees multis being the next big thing in the Olympics and wants to own it.

I don't like things being done in secret. On SA I offered to pledge $100 towards a challenge of USS. The offer still stands, a few people think the challenge has merit.


Pete Pollard
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Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: brucat] #244281
02/17/12 07:17 PM
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I think the US Multihull Championship can be a fantastic, highly regarded and well attended event that encourages participation in the sport. This should be the goal. The championship does not have to be the premier US multihull event to be a great success.

I think that a North American or National championship in your chosen class is always going to be a greater focus for most racers at the higher level.

I believe that the key element for a successful US Multihull Championship, as I have defined it above, is differentiation (in the marketing sense of the word).

Product Differentiation: “A source of competitive advantage that depends on producing some item that is regarded to have unique and valuable characteristics.”

The Alter Cup needs to be something that other events are not. Be radical!

My suggestion is to make the Alter Cup an open Portsmouth handicap event. This is a radical idea the likes of which has never been tried in the US. Picture the Texel equivalent of course racing. Why not throw a distance race in there as well. Differentiate the Alter Cup from every other catamaran championship in the US. Do not bill it as the championship that will decide who is the best catamaran sailor in the US. You will be laughed at. Bill it as the event no one is going to miss because there is nothing else like it.

Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: brucat] #244282
02/17/12 07:35 PM
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If we are going to do an open handicap event can we at least use a handicap that works. No portsmouth use Texel.


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Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: rhodysail] #244283
02/17/12 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by rhodysail
I think the US Multihull Championship can be a fantastic, highly regarded and well attended event that encourages participation in the sport. This should be the goal. The championship does not have to be the premier US multihull event to be a great success.
I think that a North American or National championship in your chosen class is always going to be a greater focus for most racers at the higher level.

I believe that the key element for a successful US Multihull Championship, as I have defined it above, is differentiation (in the marketing sense of the word).

Product Differentiation:
“A source of competitive advantage that depends on producing some item that is regarded to have unique and valuable characteristics.”

The Alter Cup needs to be something that other events are not. Be radical!

My suggestion is to make the Alter Cup an open Portsmouth handicap event. This is a radical idea the likes of which has never been tried in the US. Picture the Texel equivalent of course racing. Why not throw a distance race in there as well. Differentiate the Alter Cup from every other catamaran championship in the US. Do not bill it as the championship that will decide who is the best catamaran sailor in the US. You will be laughed at. Bill it as the event no one is going to miss because there is nothing else like it.


+1


Quote
If we are going to do an open handicap event can we at least use a handicap that works. No portsmouth use Texel.


This is my only problem with that idea. The ratings on some boats are ridiculous, in both directions. US Sailing not using the USS portsmouth system is a little far fetched though. So it would end up being the sailor that wants to win the most, gets the boat with the killer number, and competes. Still not exactly inclusive. Fix the numbers and it's a great idea.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: brucat] #244304
02/18/12 12:23 PM
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Would the number change once a boat won?


Pete Pollard
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Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: brucat] #244329
02/20/12 05:56 AM
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Originally Posted by brucat
Actually, it has nothing to do with money, and nothing to do with Rolex.

Attendance and interest in the events has been reportedly declining. You can dig around on the US Sailing website and look for results of other events to back that up.

For our event, this is the stated goal for Shannon and Liz:

Transform the U.S. Multihull Championship into the most relevant multihull event in the United States, one that will attract new and upcoming sailors, who will form the nucleus of future US Olympic sailors.

The question of whether that can be done with a 10-boat platform is a large part of the equation.

Mike



OK...TIMEOUT!

This is what US Sailing wants the regatta to be??

"Transform the U.S. Multihull Championship into the most relevant multihull event in the United States, one that will attract new and upcoming sailors, who will form the nucleus of future US Olympic sailors."

Well...that is the complete opposite of what we as cat sailors know of the ALTER CUP, which has always been about the (20 or so) BEST cat racers in this country, not any "New and Upcoming" sailors! It cannot be a big regatta, when only the top 20 teams are racing.

What they are describing we already have, it is called the Tradewinds Regatta, just look at this past event to see all the "...new and upcoming sailors who will form the nucleus of future US Olympic sailors."

So...which one are we to pursue? The traditional Alter Cup, which, in my opinion, should only be raced by the class champions and area qualified entrants, or are we going to shift it to a Tradewinds type event?

Because you can't have it both ways, at the same time, and same event.

UNLESS...immediately after Tradewinds, you take the top finishers in each class (pick the top 2 teams per class, to make 10 teams total) and then put them all on what ever the "Hot New Boat from XXX" is at the time, supplied by XXX of course, and then let them slug it out as per the traditional Alter Cup event, ie. rotating boats, for a couple days, maybe 7-10 races total.

Presto-bingo, a big regatta attracting up and coming tallent, and a true Multihull Champion. One stop shopping.

As many have already mentioned, if most weekend sailors don't show for the Alter Cup Qualifier, it's because they have no intention of doing the Alter Cup even if they qualify, so it becomes a waste of time and money for them. I only sail the qualifier when it's convienient (days off wise) and close enough to home. I consider it a good 'local' regatta, but I don't go to qualify for the Alter Cup.

Now, if you want a huge turnout, from all fleets, with new tallent, for the Alter Cup...then hold it at Tradewinds, or Spring Fever, or some other popular, well attended, open to all classes type regatta, then take the top sailors from each class and let them have at it for a couple more days, on supplied boats.



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Re: US Sailing MHC: Alter Cup Survey Open Feb 15-20, 2012 [Re: Timbo] #244330
02/20/12 08:08 AM
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Jake Offline
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When I read US Sailing's Adult Championship description it seems to contrast a little with Liz's request:

http://championships.ussailing.org/Adult.htm


Jake Kohl
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