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Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: ksurfer2] #245887
03/21/12 08:27 AM
03/21/12 08:27 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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Long Beach, California
Originally Posted by ksurfer2
I think the comparison to the Melges 24 is valid. But you have to take more than the cost of the boat into consideration. Both boats are high performance race boats. Both classes are deep with very talented sailors. Both classes have active schedules and North American championships with great attendance levels (althought the M24 numbers have dropped off recentley). With all that in mind, which class is the better bargain? Travel to a M24 regatta, and bring your 4 crew along with you, that's gonna be expensive. Want new sails for that regatta, better take out a second mortgage on your house.

Granted neither boat is cheap by any means, but the bang-for-the-buck factor that the F18 offeres is second to none!


Thanks, Special K - you apparently said it better than I.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #246472
03/29/12 12:14 PM
03/29/12 12:14 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
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France
pepin Offline
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France
I think the F18 class is trying hard to keep the cost down, but it's a battle hard to win. Each development is incrementally more expensive.

The board length is a great example, a set of custom autoclaved carbon boards for a F18 do cost a small fortune. Some top teams have them made by Reverie. 1100 for one. 2200 a pair. That's $3500 just for the daggerboards...

I hope that the class rules are going to be amended to limit the length of the daggerboards to limit cost.

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: pgp] #246482
03/29/12 01:27 PM
03/29/12 01:27 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,844
42.904444 N; 88.008586 W
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OK, I've got to chime in here. Well, I don't have to, but I am.

Pete, this vid of Monty Pythons is awesome!- from a conservative point of view!

Macca, I have met you twice, here in the states. I think you are spot on with your summaries of the costs, etc. But dude, sailing a 'Macca', now that sounds pretty fly!

Good day to all


F-18 Infusion
#626- SOLD it!

'Long Live the Legend of Chris Kyle'
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #247118
04/18/12 02:00 AM
04/18/12 02:00 AM
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diane21 Offline
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Check out Vetcentric - some products of their prices are very good.



pet meds




Last edited by diane21; 04/18/12 02:01 AM.

Good Day !!
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #247126
04/18/12 07:37 AM
04/18/12 07:37 AM

M
MN3
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MN3
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pet meds? they must think our "cats" are sick

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #247130
04/18/12 08:44 AM
04/18/12 08:44 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 678
Palm Beach County
TheManShed Offline
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Ok I was not going to jump in...
Cost are up but really the cost of the actual materials come on, that is Carbon Cloth, Foam, and Epoxy is just a small fraction of total cost, plus the boats are built in SE Asia where labor is next to nothing.....I'm not buying the spin on materials causing a 50% increase in cost.
I bought a full roll of carbon for $2500, 10 gallons of west system epoxy for $800 Ill throw $500 for the foam that is $3800 and enough to build several Cats with less than half of the roll of Carbon used.

Last edited by TheManShed; 04/18/12 08:47 AM.

Mike Shappell
www.themanshed.com
TMS-20 Builder
G-Cat 5.7 - Current Boat
NACRA 5.2 - early 70's

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: TheManShed] #247132
04/18/12 09:05 AM
04/18/12 09:05 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 141
M
mini Offline
member
mini  Offline
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M

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 141
Originally Posted by TheManShed
Ok I was not going to jump in...
Cost are up but really the cost of the actual materials come on, that is Carbon Cloth, Foam, and Epoxy is just a small fraction of total cost, plus the boats are built in SE Asia where labor is next to nothing.....I'm not buying the spin on materials causing a 50% increase in cost.
I bought a full roll of carbon for $2500, 10 gallons of west system epoxy for $800 Ill throw $500 for the foam that is $3800 and enough to build several Cats with less than half of the roll of Carbon used.


Materials ARE way up, but this is not the major cause of the cost.
It is the expectations of what people are purchasing that is driving the cost escalation.

Lamination materials are typically sold by the pound. An H16 hull weighs more than an F16 hull, but there is a huge difference in the labor that goes into one. Controlled resin contents and more importantly the finish work that goes into a modern hull to finish seams, keels etc. Nobody wants a performance boat with H16 style hull joints. We used to get by with stamped metal blocks, stay adjusters etc. Now we buy a boat and it has to have carbon blocks really. It was 2-3 bucks for a stamped strip with holes in them for the side stays, now we expect 45 dollar sta-masters or 75+ calibrated turnbuckles., high tech tapered lines etc.

Horizontal cut Dacron sails were norm, now we have to have radial cut Pentex, carbon, whatever super sails to compete. Some 5 times the amount of sewing and a huge jump in material cost.

All these things add up to way in excess of double and if you really look at what people are getting for their money, I would venture to say the cost of an F18 or other performance boat is a better value, relative to what you are purchasing, now than the boats that were being raced 20 years ago. Do we need those things that is debatable, but it is what we have progressed to.

If costs are the driving factor, then hey there is a class still for you Rick here would love to see everyone on Waves.

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: mini] #247133
04/18/12 09:34 AM
04/18/12 09:34 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 678
Palm Beach County
TheManShed Offline
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Originally Posted by mini


Lamination materials are typically sold by the pound. An H16 hull weighs more than an F16 hull, but there is a huge difference in the labor that goes into one. Controlled resin contents and more importantly the finish work that goes into a modern hull to finish seams, keels etc. Nobody wants a performance boat with H16 style hull joints.


Are you kidding me? You may try to sell it by the pound but nobody buys it by the pound. Bagging and infusion takes less labor then hand lay-up of the olden days, the labor is at Asian rates, the finish is the result of the mold or tooling. OK High tech parts may cost more I still don't see 50% but I'm getting dizzy from the spin.


Mike Shappell
www.themanshed.com
TMS-20 Builder
G-Cat 5.7 - Current Boat
NACRA 5.2 - early 70's

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #247134
04/18/12 09:41 AM
04/18/12 09:41 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
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pgp  Offline
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Well, sounds like some domestic, boutique builder could produce small quantities with a nice tidy profit built in! laugh


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #247135
04/18/12 09:58 AM
04/18/12 09:58 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 678
Palm Beach County
TheManShed Offline
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Sorry for my passion but I feel the boat builders in the US have gone the way of Wal-Mart - Made in Asia. This entire shift means there is more profit to the company yet we see higher prices to the customers. We will see what happens to quality as time goes on. But if you budget to drop 30k - 45K for one or two years of sailing cool.

It goes back to if you want to play you got to pay and if they can get away with it so be it.


Mike Shappell
www.themanshed.com
TMS-20 Builder
G-Cat 5.7 - Current Boat
NACRA 5.2 - early 70's

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: TheManShed] #247136
04/18/12 10:10 AM
04/18/12 10:10 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 141
M
mini Offline
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mini  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 141
Originally Posted by TheManShed
Originally Posted by mini


Lamination materials are typically sold by the pound. An H16 hull weighs more than an F16 hull, but there is a huge difference in the labor that goes into one. Controlled resin contents and more importantly the finish work that goes into a modern hull to finish seams, keels etc. Nobody wants a performance boat with H16 style hull joints.


Are you kidding me? You may try to sell it by the pound but nobody buys it by the pound. Bagging and infusion takes less labor then hand lay-up of the olden days, the labor is at Asian rates, the finish is the result of the mold or tooling. OK High tech parts may cost more I still don't see 50% but I'm getting dizzy from the spin.


Heres the spin.
I build composites for a living so I know a bit about this. I do not build boats anymore so there is no interest here on my part other than as an observer.

Polyester resin, gel coat, chop strand mat and rovings are all purchased by the pound. These are the things that make up your H16 of the day. I have visited a factory making F16. They were using Vinylester resin and gel coat still purchased by the pound. The fabrics are textile weaves, knit cloth and uni directional fabrics. The knits are still by the pound, but the uni and textiles are by the square yard. (Note Chop strand mat and woven roving run between 1.05 1nd 1.50 a pound, knits anywhere up to about 2.50/lb depending on the fabric weight, where a 6oz textile weave is about 3/sy or almost $9 per pound should you care to compare)

With an H16 assuming your mold is good you glue together the hull and deck, trim the edge and you are done. The newer performance hulls all have finished seams, requiring labor to fair and finish whether it if it is gel coat or paint it is still a lot of work. I have followed your blog so you should know a little bit about the amount of work that goes into a fair shinny surface. Apart from the regulations on most developed countries this is a big part of the reason many of the companies have gone to China.

Open up your Harken or Ronstan catalog and look up the difference in price between the carbo line and the Hexaratchet stuff, look up Dyneema lines vs. pure polyester, look at sat-masters vs. holed chain plates. Everyone more the double at current prices. Add to that the fact the cost of the cheap stuff has still had its fair share of increase as well.

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: TheManShed] #247137
04/18/12 10:13 AM
04/18/12 10:13 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacific....
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“an island in the Pacific....
Our junior sailing fleet is made up of Sabots with dacron sails and Open Bics with clear plastic, wind surfer type sails. The dacron sails are pretty much bullet proof, the plastic not so much. At three years old they started to crack and tear. It was costing us $40 a panel to repair vs. replacing them for $450 each.

One of the kid's father works for Neil Pryde. He goes to their loft in China every two months. He looked at the Bic sails and said he could get them duplicated in his loft for $150 and he'd cover the shipping.


US Sail Level 2 Instructor
US Sail Level 3 Coach
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: TheManShed] #247138
04/18/12 10:16 AM
04/18/12 10:16 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 141
M
mini Offline
member
mini  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 141
Originally Posted by TheManShed
Sorry for my passion but I feel the boat builders in the US have gone the way of Wal-Mart - Made in Asia. This entire shift means there is more profit to the company yet we see higher prices to the customers. We will see what happens to quality as time goes on. But if you budget to drop 30k - 45K for one or two years of sailing cool.

It goes back to if you want to play you got to pay and if they can get away with it so be it.


Here I agree with you, on the bail out to China. Pretty crappy and it is not a US only issue as several Euro builders have and are making the jump as well. You can all buy boats now made inthe same shop - what a deal. mad

You do have 1 performance cat builder still building in the US - Falcon

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: mini] #247139
04/18/12 10:23 AM
04/18/12 10:23 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
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Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by mini

You do have 1 performance cat builder still building in the US - Falcon


Yep! And as long as Matt keeps the build in the US that's where I'll buy my next F18!


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #247140
04/18/12 10:42 AM
04/18/12 10:42 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 712
mikekrantz Offline
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Posts: 712
Youre not factoring the cost of hardware
I just built out an acat mast
I thought I could save some money just buying a bare tube

20 hrs labor and $1,700 in hardware later I had a mast...

There's a lot of hardware that goes into a complete F18

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: mini] #247141
04/18/12 10:50 AM
04/18/12 10:50 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 678
Palm Beach County
TheManShed Offline
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mimi not to get into a debate my point is they, me and you buy bulk 1 gallon, 5 gallon, or a drum of resin, a roll of cloth. I agree that cost is fixed by some unit of measurement.
They do not purchase say 12.32 pound for an individual boat or part. I have been in more than a handful of small boatbuilding shops (boats less than 40 feet) looking at the operations and some very large ship yards
When I bought my first NACRA 5.2 I cleaned up the seams on that hull anything can be taken to the 10th degree. Im guilty of that 100 times over I guess that is why I like to build boats and restore old cars.
It has seem that costs have gotten out of control..well until or if I every roll out the TMS-20 then everything I say now will be retracted except build in USA always.


Mike Shappell
www.themanshed.com
TMS-20 Builder
G-Cat 5.7 - Current Boat
NACRA 5.2 - early 70's

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #247142
04/18/12 10:51 AM
04/18/12 10:51 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 302
Daytona Beach Florida
O
orphan Offline
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orphan  Offline
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Posts: 302
Daytona Beach Florida
I gotta ask. What was the breakdown on 1700 in mast parts?

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: pgp] #247143
04/18/12 11:20 AM
04/18/12 11:20 AM

M
MN3
Unregistered
MN3
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted by pgp
Well, sounds like some domestic, boutique builder could produce small quantities with a nice tidy profit built in! laugh


i would think economies of scale are needed to be profitable (that doesn't even take "competitive" into account)

Last edited by MN3; 04/18/12 12:55 PM.
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: TheManShed] #247150
04/18/12 12:47 PM
04/18/12 12:47 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by TheManShed
mimi not to get into a debate my point is they, me and you buy bulk 1 gallon, 5 gallon, or a drum of resin, a roll of cloth. I agree that cost is fixed by some unit of measurement.
They do not purchase say 12.32 pound for an individual boat or part. I have been in more than a handful of small boatbuilding shops (boats less than 40 feet) looking at the operations and some very large ship yards
When I bought my first NACRA 5.2 I cleaned up the seams on that hull anything can be taken to the 10th degree. Im guilty of that 100 times over I guess that is why I like to build boats and restore old cars.
It has seem that costs have gotten out of control..well until or if I every roll out the TMS-20 then everything I say now will be retracted except build in USA always.


I think if you're laying up a hull with a glass chopper gun, you will be buying glass spools by the pound.


Jake Kohl
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: Jake] #247151
04/18/12 12:53 PM
04/18/12 12:53 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 678
Palm Beach County
TheManShed Offline
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Ha I remember my first boat building job they had a hell of a chopper gun!

Jake how do you vacuum bag Chopper Mat?


Mike Shappell
www.themanshed.com
TMS-20 Builder
G-Cat 5.7 - Current Boat
NACRA 5.2 - early 70's

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