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Re: Tradewinds venue change question [Re: David Ingram] #251607
08/23/12 08:42 AM
08/23/12 08:42 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline OP

Carpal Tunnel
RickWhite  Offline OP

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Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
Everyone seemed to like the optional 3-day event and would like to stick with it.

And possible maybe some As will even sail with us, like they used to do.

Here is the edited NOR Link: http://www.catsailor.com/Tradewinds.html


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Tradewinds venue change question [Re: RickWhite] #251609
08/23/12 09:36 AM
08/23/12 09:36 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by RickWhite
Everyone seemed to like the optional 3-day event and would like to stick with it.

And possible maybe some As will even sail with us, like they used to do.

Here is the edited NOR Link: http://www.catsailor.com/Tradewinds.html


It takes about as much time to derig and rig an A cat as it does a Hobie 16, plus it on only weighs 3 pounds. They aren't coming to Tradewinds because they have to break their boat down drive it a half a mile and rerig. If you're thinking the fleet will stay and sail Tradewinds, you'd be wrong.

Besides asking them to change their schedule for us, did ask them about us being there and what their opinions are on the matter? I could be wrong but I have a feeling they aren't happy about us squatting on the tail end of their party.

You're not going to come out clean on this one Rick.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Tradewinds venue change question [Re: RickWhite] #251610
08/23/12 09:53 AM
08/23/12 09:53 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Karl_Brogger  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
I'd have to do some thinking if its only a two day event. It costs me $1400 just in fuel to get to the Keys. It's a major expense for two days. Granted, I'm usually down there early anyway.


I'm boatless.
Re: Tradewinds venue change question [Re: Karl_Brogger] #251612
08/23/12 10:15 AM
08/23/12 10:15 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
I'd have to do some thinking if its only a two day event. It costs me $1400 just in fuel to get to the Keys. It's a major expense for two days. Granted, I'm usually down there early anyway.


Moving it to the following weekend does not keep it from being a 3 day event. It's moot anyway, Rick pulled the trigger.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Tradewinds venue change question [Re: RickWhite] #251615
08/23/12 10:30 AM
08/23/12 10:30 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,222
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
**** in the making.God help us all if there is a wedding or two also. I plan on doing both so it actually makes it easier for me, not sure many others will see it that way.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Tradewinds venue change question [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #251617
08/23/12 11:04 AM
08/23/12 11:04 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 602
Wilmington,NC
Dlennard Offline
addict
Dlennard  Offline
addict

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 602
Wilmington,NC
I know Mike takes both boats A cat and F18 and he does the A event then we go to Tradewinds I don't think he will drive down twice and will just have to do one event. I would definitely check with the Islander about boats and the launching is limited unless it has changed since I was there last.
Too bad US Sailing can't get parks to be beach cat friendly in the USA.

Re: Tradewinds venue change question [Re: Dlennard] #251618
08/23/12 11:36 AM
08/23/12 11:36 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Quote
Too bad US Sailing can't get parks to be beach cat friendly in the USA.
_________________________
David Lennard
F18
http://www.emsa-sailing.org/


Dave that is a terrific idea!! I am sure the US Sailing Multihull Council would support any effort you make in working on this issue! We would even form an official committee or working group with you in the lead should you wish!


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Tradewinds venue change question [Re: Mark Schneider] #251620
08/23/12 11:49 AM
08/23/12 11:49 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Quote
Too bad US Sailing can't get parks to be beach cat friendly in the USA.
_________________________
David Lennard
F18
http://www.emsa-sailing.org/


Dave that is a terrific idea!! I am sure the US Sailing Multihull Council would support any effort you make in working on this issue! We would even form an official committee or working group with you in the lead should you wish!


If you guys don't want to hear valid suggestions please stop asking.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Tradewinds venue change question [Re: RickWhite] #251621
08/23/12 11:50 AM
08/23/12 11:50 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
Valid??? To the best of my knowledge, US Sailing is not a huge lobby group in Washington to have the influence you're looking for.

The key to local access is... wait for it... LOCAL involvement. Boots on the ground, attending local town meetings, etc. Find a good spot, treat it well (leave it cleaner than you found it, don't require police action for the parties, etc.), and you'll go very far.

I would definitely support a subcommittee of the MHC to be formed as a think-tank to help promote best practices.

But, this is not a problem that "someone" at US Sailing can "fix," at the end of the day it requires local effort.

It's more than a little frustrating to hear people say that they want someone to fix all of their local problems in return for just writing a check for $50.

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 08/23/12 11:54 AM.
Re: Tradewinds venue change question [Re: brucat] #251622
08/23/12 12:06 PM
08/23/12 12:06 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by brucat
Valid??? To the best of my knowledge, US Sailing is not a huge lobby group in Washington to have the influence you're looking for.

The key to local access is... wait for it... LOCAL involvement. Boots on the ground, attending local town meetings, etc. Find a good spot, treat it well (leave it cleaner than you found it, don't require police action for the parties, etc.), and you'll go very far.

I would definitely support a subcommittee of the MHC to be formed as a think-tank to help promote best practices.

But, this is not a problem that "someone" at US Sailing can "fix," at the end of the day it requires local effort.

It's more than a little frustrating to hear people say that they want someone to fix all of their local problems in return for just writing a check for $50.

Mike


And that pretty much sums up the impotence of US Sailing. Mike everyone knows that EVERYTHING worth doing happens at the ground level by a group of dedicated and passionate individuals without a lick of help from US Sailing. In my opinion and experience US Sailing would just get in the way anyway.

So when you ask what can US Sailing do to inspire you to join US Sailing what you're really asking is what can US Sailing do without doing anything at all that will inspire you to join US Sailing, right?


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Tradewinds venue change question [Re: David Ingram] #251623
08/23/12 12:38 PM
08/23/12 12:38 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
Originally Posted by David Ingram
So when you ask what can US Sailing do to inspire you to join US Sailing what you're really asking is what can US Sailing do without doing anything at all that will inspire you to join US Sailing, right?


If playing these games is all you have to do today, nothing I can say will help.

Mike

Re: Tradewinds venue change question [Re: David Ingram] #251624
08/23/12 12:54 PM
08/23/12 12:54 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Why take it that way Dave.... aside from your general dyspeptic reaction to all things US Sailing because they threw you out of the sandbox. (I assume for not playing well with others.)

Beach Access is a legit issue.... cats are different from dinghies that launch off trailers....

It is a real issue... and it is area that could use some attention. Getting information about how other municipalities manage things like insurance, and access could really help the local boots on the ground effort at maintaining water access...

there is no "Them". It is by an large a volunteer organization. It is just part of the game... you need to support your fleet, class, club, regional organization, and national organization and do your part at each level (that means work)... otherwise... you get a half assed result.

Would a paper, sanctioned by the governing body of US Sailing help a local case for maintaining beach access... I think it would... Will your local reps win the case... who knows but you make your best case and work the problem.

Who should create such a document that speaks to issues of recreational and racing catamaran sailors??? hmmm.... probably not a Farr 40 sailor.

Back in the day... we did not work with the local sailing clubs and organizing authorities... We had little interaction with US Sailing, CBYRA, or any yacht club with property.
Sandy Point State Park used to have a very popular beach and launch site for catamrans, windsurfers and other small dinghies. CRAC would use the park for a couple of regattas a year and start the DTB and C100 from the park. A nor easter drove a rebuild of the park.... Somehow, the park admin found a volunteer who attempted to represent the beach cat world. They thought they would make the park much better for our use... That was their goal.. Those of us in the racing club world would use Sandy Point once or twice a year and we were off their radar screen of who to contact. By the time we figured out the plan we were too late to make any changes .. The volunteer was stunned to find out how poorly the rebuild had gone, how bad the plan was and since he had moved away in the two years the park area was closed for the rebuild.... there was no follow up .... Too late to fix the loss.

Since we were not part of the sailing community... they did not find us. The end result was completely unworkable for recreational sailors and not worth it for the cat racers... The park was abandoned to the Jet skiers.

Back in the day... the attitude was ... we don't need that stinking Yacht club and US Sailing mentality... "all we use are the Portsmouth ratings and that was it". Those official sailing organizations are useless and besides... they hate us and don't like us..... Today... You carry that same torch.

The attitude back in the day was a loser... Your attitude is a loser now!

There are real costs.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Tradewinds venue change question [Re: RickWhite] #251627
08/23/12 03:04 PM
08/23/12 03:04 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
Mike Hill Offline
old hand
Mike Hill  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
I think this is an area that US Sailing can and should get involved. I would think they could come up with a form letter that would go to local .gov officials. Perhaps even a letter from a lawyer's office can be effective. Nothing scares locals more than the fear of litigation.

A properly worded letter that explains the benefits of sailing to the community. One that also carries a bit of stick with it. You know carrot and stick method.

That would be a nice service.


Mike Hill
N20 #1005
Re: Tradewinds venue change question [Re: RickWhite] #251628
08/23/12 04:04 PM
08/23/12 04:04 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
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brucat  Offline
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Posts: 3,969
OK, let's take a step back. What is the actual reason the site was "lost?"

Is this as simple as a one-time scheduling conflict, or is there more to the story?

A deeper question would be, how is this US Sailing's fault (since this is being used as a reason not to join)? Other than, "I'm an American, and it's always someone else's fault, especially if it's a governing body."

Mike

Re: Tradewinds venue change question [Re: brucat] #251630
08/23/12 06:22 PM
08/23/12 06:22 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 602
Wilmington,NC
Dlennard Offline
addict
Dlennard  Offline
addict

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 602
Wilmington,NC
My comment was not about just the Tradewinds site being lost but about sites being lost everywhere. I guess what I see is a big group with money and a lot of members will be able to get more done than some local sailors going to a town meeting. We lost all access to Wrightsville beach years ago and did attend the meeting and said we would police the area, pay a fee and so on and still no joy. I live 5min from the beach and have not sailed here in 12 years and the last time was the Worrell and we sailed in from Miami.
The biking association I joined IMBA has mountain bike trails opening up everywhere with government support on government land. We have 2 parks in my town with another getting ready to open and my membership is only 30.00. If the mountain biking group can get government parks and grant money why can't the sailing group. US Sailing is the largest sailing organization and should be the one to get the ball rolling. One reason cat sailing is in decline is there is no where to launch unless you join a yacht club or find private land to launch. Oh and I don't think myself and most cat sailors are yacht club people.

Re: Tradewinds venue change question [Re: Timbo] #251633
08/23/12 07:45 PM
08/23/12 07:45 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
arbo06 Offline
Pooh-Bah
arbo06  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,911
South Florida & the Keys
The last 100 yards of day one Steeple Chase has killed many a' sailor...... (Anne's Beach)


Eric Arbogast
ARC 2101
Miami Yacht Club
Re: Tradewinds venue change question [Re: brucat] #251636
08/24/12 06:07 AM
08/24/12 06:07 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline OP

Carpal Tunnel
RickWhite  Offline OP

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
How was the site lost? History, Founders Park was once a privately owned marina, motel, restaurant and bars. I started doing my seminars there in 1990 and we got along famously.
CABB wanted to start doing a yearly regatta and we introduced them to the venue and the Tradewinds was born.
Then came politics.
the area voted in a new village, to be ruled by themselves instead of the county, nee Islamorada, or Village of Islands (some say Village of Idiots). It was then the fun began.
The new mayor bought the facility to be a town park, and personally bought the adjoining property.
The regatta still managed just fine with the new regime, until they redesigned the beach, tore down the bar, etc. It was then we found it difficult to get to the beach.
Meanwhile, Chip and Barb Short bought the beach concession and figured out a way to get easements to the beach.
Meanwhile the politics has gotten more and more difficult thanks to the town BoD. The director of Founders Park is all for the regatta.

In your asking how we lost the venue, it was not anything the regatta did wrong. We were always orderly and left the place clean. We had good relationships with the park director and staff.

Yep, this is unfair to a perfectly good regatta, who did everything right, but got blindsided by the politicia.

Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Tradewinds venue change question [Re: RickWhite] #251638
08/24/12 07:52 AM
08/24/12 07:52 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,246
Orlando, FL
tback Offline
veteran
tback  Offline
veteran

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,246
Orlando, FL


Jumping on Ding's bandwagon ... isn't this the single biggest thing USSailing can do for the sport? Have a gazzillion dollar insurance rider that any club could use to supplement their policy?


USA 777
Re: Tradewinds venue change question [Re: tback] #251642
08/24/12 08:29 AM
08/24/12 08:29 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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waterbug_wpb  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
I thought that was the burgee program?

I'm still trying to get over the shock of not having T-winds at Founders park. Did anyone tell that furry dude in the T-back and his hot wife we're not coming? He'll be crushed.

Can someone contact the bank that owns Rowell's and see if we can use it? Long shot, I know. Maybe we can all pitch in $50 and buy the thing outright... smile

Is MYC a possible host candidate? Having it in Biscayne Bay?

I like the three-day concept over MLK weekend, but agree that crashing the A-cat party would probably cause some bad feelings (those guys have fragile egos smile ) and that's never good for the sport.


Jay

Re: Tradewinds venue change question [Re: waterbug_wpb] #251648
08/24/12 10:31 AM
08/24/12 10:31 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
Mike Hill Offline
old hand
Mike Hill  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
There is a burgee program provided by Gowrie.

Burgee program

Our yacht club uses it. It's not cheap though. It's just a program that US Sailing partnered with to provide insurance to yacht clubs. It works fairly well for a large established yacht club. However it is not really appropriate for a one weekend regatta.

Last I saw prices a weekend regatta coverage was around $1000. That's not really in the budget for a small regatta.

I'd really like to find out how Bike organizations handle this. They have group rides all the time that have to be covered. They have races. It would be interesting to see how they handle their coverage. I know someone locally that's very involved in the Trailnet program and will inquire about it. Perhaps they don't think the exposure is as large for a bike ride/race.

Rick, Did they request 1 million or 3 million in liability coverage? Or maybe more? Just wondering.


Mike Hill
N20 #1005
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