Announcements
New Discussions
New England 100 2019: 30th Anniversary!!!
by brucat. 11/13/19 08:04 PM
2020, The Year of The Cat
by dave mosley. 11/13/19 10:11 AM
Polar Diagrams for beach catamarans?
by Damon Linkous. 11/03/19 04:21 PM
Things to do and not to do flying a spin
by rehmbo. 10/29/19 03:59 AM
Cleaning corner castings
by extremebias. 10/18/19 03:18 PM
What are EPO rudders?
by chevy43. 10/17/19 12:37 AM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 7 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Timbo] #254011
10/26/12 10:58 AM
10/26/12 10:58 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
TEAMVMG Offline
veteran
TEAMVMG  Offline
veteran

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
[quote=Timbo
Thanks Jeff, I am thinking back to the original situation that started this thread. We were going downwind into a gate, starboard boat coming in on three overlapped port boats, all about to round the same (left, looking upwind) gate mark. The port boats got to the 3 boat lenght circle first, so even though they are on port, they had right of way to round, and the starboard boat had to give them room, correct?

[/quote]

Well yes, but its not the fact that the port tackers entered the circle first. Its the fact that when the starboard tacker entered the circle, the port tackers were over lapped with him. As i said, the port tackers can be a mile away and still be overlapped because they are infront of a line extended across the starboard tacker's transoms.

If a starboard tacker bears off just as he enters the circle, he can break the overlap that some port tackers may have.


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: ] #254016
10/26/12 11:37 AM
10/26/12 11:37 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
I
Isotope235 Offline
old hand
Isotope235  Offline
old hand
I

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
Originally Posted by MN3
"originally established overlap from clear astern within two boatlengths"
Can you elaborate on this for a novice racer?

There are several ways in which two boats can become overlapped on the same tack within two boatlengths. One boat could overtake another either to windward or to leeward. A boat could tack or gybe next to another boat. Two boats overlapped more than two boatlengths apart sailing different courses could converge.

If a boat that was clear astern, overtakes another boat and becomes overlapped to leeward of her, then the leeward boat may not sail above her proper course (see rule 17 for full details). This rule exists so that:
  1. If a boat overtakes you to windward, you can luff her up to protect yourself from getting rolled, and
  2. If a boat overtakes you to leeward, she cannot luff you up in order to pass.
Does that help clear it up?

Regards,
Eric

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: TEAMVMG] #254017
10/26/12 11:41 AM
10/26/12 11:41 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
I
Isotope235 Offline
old hand
Isotope235  Offline
old hand
I

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
Originally Posted by TEAMVMG
If a starboard tacker bears off just as he enters the circle, he can break the overlap that some port tackers may have.

The starboard tack boat had better bear off well before entering the zone, and hold that course until she is definitely in the zone. Otherwise, rule 18.2(d) comes into play: "if there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not".

Regards,
Eric

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: John Williams] #254019
10/26/12 02:49 PM
10/26/12 02:49 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by waynemarlow
...I luffed him up enough to cause both boats to go almost into wind, at which stage he then purposely turned into my boat, shouted protest and demanded I do a 720.


So as the leeward boat, you took him up and he cried foul? Baffling... did he have a case for proper course? Leaving the mark, I'd guess not... judges have patiently explained to me that proper course is a little subjective, but it becomes clearer once you pass the midpoint between marks of the course. Regardless, as leeward boat, obviously you can take him up.

One thing I try to say as an overtaking, faster boat - "This will only hurt for a second." I say it with a smile.


Yeah, you might want to rethink the conversation starters it does nothing for the agro. Just do what you are gonna do and move on quietly. Unless it is Ricky then by all means carry on.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Timbo] #254022
10/26/12 04:58 PM
10/26/12 04:58 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 337
Arizona
AzCat Offline
enthusiast
AzCat  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 337
Arizona
GREAT, NOW IM REALLY CONFUSED!!!


Auscat MKV 444 A class
NACRA I-20- 440/CATHATKA
Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: AzCat] #254028
10/26/12 07:18 PM
10/26/12 07:18 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Mike Fahle Offline
addict
Mike Fahle  Offline
addict

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
It is O.K. to be confused here because this is a poor place to learn the rules. (Most of) The guys explaining are doing a good job but they are only doing word descriptions - no drawings even; no video, no other visual aids. Makes for a tough teaching environment. There are plenty of other websites that will provide those other tools to make learning much easier. Take your curiosity to those places and learn before you get too frustrated and give up. It will soon make sense when you can see it applied. Here is one example: http://raceadmin.ussailing.org/Rules/Animated_Handy_Guide.htm?bcpid=61494017001&bckey=AQ~~,AAAADkpfq7E~,4OewegLUcjErjwxev9HJ8XQuMzR8VOpx&bclid=110123965001&bctid=111698220001

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Isotope235] #254033
10/27/12 03:36 AM
10/27/12 03:36 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893
W
waynemarlow Offline
old hand
waynemarlow  Offline
old hand
W

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893
Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by John Williams
So as the leeward boat, you took him up and he cried foul? Baffling... did he have a case for proper course? ... Regardless, as leeward boat, obviously you can take him up.

If a leeward boat originally established overlap from clear astern within two boatlengths, and later heads the windward boat up "almost into the wind", then she breaks rule 17 "On The Same Tack; Proper Course". The windward boat would be entirely correct to protest. The leeward boat may not sail above her proper course.

I hope that helps,
Eric

But we had gone beyond 3 boat lengths from the mark and in my view he should have had ample time to sail his proper course to the next mark. His biggest complaint was that because he had been forced to turn ( bigger boat and taller mast ) I could then pass him coming out of the mark.

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Timbo] #254038
10/27/12 07:55 AM
10/27/12 07:55 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Every time I read a rules discussion thread I can not stop falling into a philosophical frame of mind on how complex common situations become when the RRS are applied.

The 4 year revisions dont seem to make things simpler either. Mast abeam calls when racing translates auomatically to "lets stay away from this boat" in my head and tells me that the current RRS are not working.

I dont have answers but I am sure the rules for our game is overly complex and changes too often.

Sorry for digressing off topic..

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #254047
10/27/12 04:03 PM
10/27/12 04:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Mike Fahle Offline
addict
Mike Fahle  Offline
addict

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Here we go again - no rules conversation would be complete w/o the obigatory whining about how complex the rules are. First of all Rolf, the mast abeam call went out a LOOOONG time ago. Second, those common situations are what are complex, not the rules. Third, the rules have major changes only every four years, and often they do not change much as is the case this year. Fourth, the actual R-O-W rules are amazingly brief considering all that they have to cover - just compare them to practically any other set of game rules. Finally, the rules are changed only to make them work better, be briefer, clearer, and to correct unintended consequences, and only after being reviewed ad nauseum by rules experts all aroud the world so that they CONTINUE to work very well when followed.

How much time and effort have you (and each racer) spent reading, studying, and learning the rules? For the vast majority of racers, it is not much. When you consider that tactics derive directly from application of the rules, it is basic to racing that you understand the rules, not just a good idea. Has anyone considered what they are saying about themselves when they have been racing for a while and whine about the rules being too complex? Hint: it is not complimentary.

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Timbo] #254048
10/27/12 04:32 PM
10/27/12 04:32 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
North U does a great job with their seminars, find one and go, especially after a book hange

Mike

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Mike Fahle] #254054
10/28/12 04:02 AM
10/28/12 04:02 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Mike,

it has to be election time in the US jugding from the lack of reading comprehension and quick attempts to stamp everybody with a different opinion as whiners and similar.

From my post it should be blindingly obvious that I am indeed aware that "mast abeam" left the ruleset sometime in the late 80s.

I have studied and followed the RRS since 2001. I still think the rules are complex compared to other team and individual sports I have taken part in. From the discussions that pop up all the time I find it a statement worthy of Comical Ali to say "it is the situations that are complex, not the RRS".

If you try to apply your arguments to the tax rules in the USA instead of the RRS you might agree with me that sometimes comittee work by experts might result in complexity instead of real world applicability.

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Timbo] #254062
10/28/12 09:39 AM
10/28/12 09:39 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Mike Fahle Offline
addict
Mike Fahle  Offline
addict

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 425
Toledo, Ohio (western end of ...
Hey Rolf, If you have been studying the rules since 2001 then you know that you can submit suggestions to improve the rules, in fact that is encouraged. And if you think they are overly complex then you must have some ideas to share to improve them. Otherwise, you are indeed a whiner.

The simple fact of the matter is that racers should know and enforce the rules. It does no one any favors to complain about them and only encourages excuse making for not knowing them.

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Timbo] #254065
10/28/12 12:28 PM
10/28/12 12:28 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Mike,

if I were you I would focus less on whining. You seem obsessed by the word.

Of course it is valid to point out the complexity of the current RRS without having to present a new solution. Scientifical proof is more or less based on questioning instead of finished solutions.

Trying to have the establishment take a radical new approach never happens until a collapse of the system is near. Same with the RRS. Eg. the proposal Gurra Krantz made which earned no limit of ridicule. The proposal did have real merit though and obviously it works becouse this is the rule most beginners sail by: "Avoid all other boats".

Ref: http://rrsstudy.blogspot.no/2008/10/no-rules.html

I would start with this is the foundation and perhaps even stay with it.

If you want to discuss this, I propose you start a new thread.

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Timbo] #254097
10/29/12 09:14 AM
10/29/12 09:14 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 975
South Louisiana, USA
Clayton Offline
old hand
Clayton  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 975
South Louisiana, USA
Deleted post, content mis-read.

Last edited by Clayton; 10/31/12 11:28 AM.
Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Clayton] #254101
10/29/12 10:43 AM
10/29/12 10:43 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
tactics are slow. Hitting boats is even slower.

Find the clean air and steer that way...


Jay

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: waterbug_wpb] #254116
10/29/12 07:54 PM
10/29/12 07:54 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 337
Arizona
AzCat Offline
enthusiast
AzCat  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 337
Arizona
Out here in Az, We are trying to get more people into sailing and into racing. Its attitudes like yours that scare people away who might otherwise get into sailing and or racing. Maybe you don't care about that. I do.

CHILL MAN!!!

We are all learning the rules and how they apply to the many gray areas created in racing. You probably shouldn't come out here any time soon and race with us, because you will be PISSED!!! But we have a great bunch of guys with really cool boats!
The rest of you, come on out and race with us this winter, Im sure you can teach us desert dwellers a bunch.
But guess what. We have gone from a couple cats at a few events a year, to 10 to 15 cats on the third weekend of every month and growing. We will do anything to get people to come back out to the lake at the next event! Last weekend, I left my 2 cats at home so that I could climb aboard a new members cat and teach them how to keep it pointy side up.

At club racing, enjoy the racing, don't hit anyone, learn and / or teach the rules as you go. Just because you memorized the rule book doesn't make you an expert on the rules.


Last edited by azcat; 10/29/12 07:59 PM.

Auscat MKV 444 A class
NACRA I-20- 440/CATHATKA
Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Timbo] #254122
10/30/12 07:30 AM
10/30/12 07:30 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
If we can't have rules debates without spiraling downward toward personal attacks every single time, we will quickly drop below critical mass and will have no regattas left that are worth attending.

Let's take some deep breaths here guys...

Mike

Re: Rules Question, rounding at a leeward gate: [Re: Clayton] #254124
10/30/12 08:24 AM
10/30/12 08:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by Clayton
Don't call me a whiner as I'm probably old enough to be your dad and would you call him that?



Uh yes, I call my dad on his sh!t and he certianly doesn't hesitate to call me on mine. Just becuase we're old doens't mean we get a pass.

Oh wait... Ricky I'm old so STFU.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Page 7 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
1 registered members (handwaesche), 20 guests, and 434 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
handwaesche, chanwood, bluesoul, camshima, Elise
7978 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
brucat 2
rehmbo 1
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,369
Posts266,945
Members7,978
Most Online1,650
Sep 10th, 2019
--Advertisement--
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1