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Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: Tony_F18] #255020
11/20/12 08:17 AM
11/20/12 08:17 AM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Thanks Tony for the EU perspective... I belive AUS and NZ are the same way.

The key word you use is MEMBERSHIP.... not CUSTOMER.

In America, we have that independent streak... so membeship is not mandatory.

As soon as you view the arrangement as a customer buying a service... the entire infrastructue will fall apart.
Volunteers are not working for you...

The thread keeps enumerating services that "customers" demand.. ... Ollie wants a funded olympic development team, Dave wants legal support for beach access, Pete wants community sailing centers for his membership fee, John wants an Alter cup championship with provided boats, Dave wants no US Sailing interference.

There is nothing wrong with these wants... it is just not the basis for joining the club.
If you share the overall goal of the organization of supporting sailing or believe that a young sailor will be inspired by competing in the Olympics then you should join US Sailing (paraphrasing Gary Jobson)


crac.sailregattas.com
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Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: RickWhite] #255021
11/20/12 08:22 AM
11/20/12 08:22 AM
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oxj Offline
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Mike, I would encourage you to take a closer look at those past transgressions of US Sailing you are so quick to dismiss. They run pretty deep and maybe if you understood where some of our opinions came from you would be in a better position to address them instead of just saying to move on. Nobody is going to move on without seeing some real change.

Even when the multihulls had adequate representation at the Olympics (which it no longer has) the funds dedicated for Olympic development were never allocated fairly. For a long time they weren't even spent on that at all. Then the OC got more serious and stipulated more specifically how the funds were to be spent. But due to the good old boys club or whatever corruption and politics drove the decisions the multihulls never got their fair share of the allocated budget.

Real change to me would be:
1) Formal apology from US Sailing to the multihull sailors
2) Coaching. Coaching is what determines success at the Worlds and the Olympics. Has US Sailing hired dedicated multihull coaches? Is there anyone in US Sailing (outside of the multihull council) that has any expertise in multihulls?
3) Budget equality between classes. No more favorites. We want equipment for the youth to practice with. Have they purchased any N17s?

I agree that ISAF would not recognize splinter groups. ISAF is not necessarily the only way to the IOC though. In fact, I think ISAF might be the reason we lose sailing out of the Olympics completely. But that is a whole other mess to untangle.

Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: brucat] #255025
11/20/12 09:08 AM
11/20/12 09:08 AM
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pgp Offline
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Just responding to your post.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: Bob_Curry] #255026
11/20/12 09:12 AM
11/20/12 09:12 AM
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pgp Offline
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Originally Posted by Bob_Curry
I like the idea of a coup but I'm afraid we would not have the numbers against the massive monohull mentality.

Instead, why don't we revive NAMSA? It definetely is formed by multi sailors for multi sailors.

wink


I don't think the monohull crowd is real happy with USS, hell I've even heard complaints from the Opti people.

IF the entire membership is unhappy that's a sign of needed change.

I guess the Multihull committee did the catamaran survey last year? Why not an inclusive confidence vote, so we see where we stand?


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: RickWhite] #255027
11/20/12 09:46 AM
11/20/12 09:46 AM
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
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Mike,
Can you post the link again to the results from the survey? I seem to remember you did before but I can't find it.
Thanks.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: RickWhite] #255029
11/20/12 09:53 AM
11/20/12 09:53 AM
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brucat Offline
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Ollie, you make some good points, and I have already stated that we will make every effort not to repeat old mistakes. However, claiming that the new multihull discipline is less worthy than the old is a repulsive attitude towards the sailors who will follow this path.

As a reminder, Jack and Gary both came to our meeting last year, and both stated unequivocally that US Sailing values us and wants to work with us. Everyone, on all sides, recognize that mistakes have been made, on all sides.

We are currently being asked to help shape the future of Olympic and Development. I am not going to take a giant step backwards and rehash the past demanding apologies or anything else.

As you know, all funding for Olympics comes through separate fundraising (not from dues). How much money do you think has been donated through our side of the sport? I'd guess not a whole lot. If we want more funding to be made available to our athletes, it would be a much better use of our time to help raise it.

Mike

Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: RickWhite] #255030
11/20/12 09:54 AM
11/20/12 09:54 AM
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brucat Offline
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Todd, I'll try to find that when I get home. It was emailed to all Area Reps and everyone on the Multihull Championship Committee in the spring.

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 11/20/12 09:57 AM.
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: brucat] #255031
11/20/12 10:02 AM
11/20/12 10:02 AM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Ollie

2) Coaching. Coaching is what determines success at the Worlds and the Olympics. Has US Sailing hired dedicated multihull coaches? Is there anyone in US Sailing (outside of the multihull council) that has any expertise in multihulls?

Leandro Spinna is the multihull coach. As you probablly know he is a cat sailor as well.

3) Budget equality between classes. No more favorites. We want equipment for the youth to practice with. Have they purchased any N17s?

umm... US Olympic has never provided boats in any class.
Budget equality.... The funding formula is published... the amount depends on how you do in international events.

The youth pathway is through F16's and the events are open. The olympics are on N17's and the events are mixed


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: brucat] #255033
11/20/12 10:27 AM
11/20/12 10:27 AM
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pgp Offline
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A second stumbling block. USS' mandate is for Olympic developement, I for one have little interest in the Olympics and don't plan contribute a single penny towards that developement.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: pgp] #255034
11/20/12 10:39 AM
11/20/12 10:39 AM
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tampa, fl
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ksurfer2 Offline
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I guess I have a really unpopular stance regarding US Sailing within the community that I sail in. I see the good that US Sailing does in training judges, race officials, certifying youth sailing coaches, etc. All of the me, me, me, comments going on are troubling. Sailing is more than just what is going on in your back yard and how it affects YOU. You don't want to support olympic sailing or the alter cup, fine, don't. But, Pete, take a look at this years olympic sailing team....A large number are from right in your back yard...Zach Riley (Finn), Paige Riley (Laser), Mark Mendleblat (Star), Farrah Hall (windsurfer). These are all sailors coming out of your backyard. Why not support them and their efforts??????


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: ksurfer2] #255035
11/20/12 11:13 AM
11/20/12 11:13 AM
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Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by ksurfer2
I guess I have a really unpopular stance regarding US Sailing within the community that I sail in. I see the good that US Sailing does in training judges, race officials, certifying youth sailing coaches, etc. All of the me, me, me, comments going on are troubling. Sailing is more than just what is going on in your back yard and how it affects YOU. You don't want to support olympic sailing or the alter cup, fine, don't. But, Pete, take a look at this years olympic sailing team....A large number are from right in your back yard...Zach Riley (Finn), Paige Riley (Laser), Mark Mendleblat (Star), Farrah Hall (windsurfer). These are all sailors coming out of your backyard. Why not support them and their efforts??????


No doubt US Sailing does do some good but I liken it to a charitable organization that keeps 80% of what it takes in for admin fees and uses the remaining 20% for doing what it was set up to do. Do you donate to charities that are set up that way? This has to change, clearly changing it from the inside doesn't work so what's the plan B? Accept USS sailng for what it is and ignore its disfunction?

There is also nothing to prevent anyone from supporting our olympic hopefulls directly. Do you really think USS stretches our support $$ farther than giving it directly to the sailors? Do you believe there is no politics involved when distributing those funds?

Karl, I was just like you beating that US Sailing drum then I got more involved than I should have and I kind of miss those days now.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
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Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: RickWhite] #255036
11/20/12 11:16 AM
11/20/12 11:16 AM
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pgp Offline
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I'm not opposed to Olympic sailing (though I'm sure it sounds that way). I'm more concerned about access, which has been my number one concern for years.

Let USS develop a strong policy for opening access and see if there is a positive result.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: Bob_Curry] #255037
11/20/12 11:23 AM
11/20/12 11:23 AM
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Naples, FL
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Originally Posted by Bob_Curry
Instead, why don't we revive NAMSA? It definetely is formed by multi sailors for multi sailors.

wink


And what would you like to see NAMSA set as it's goal(s)?


Jay

Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: Mark Schneider] #255038
11/20/12 11:23 AM
11/20/12 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Ollie


Leandro Spina is the multihull coach. As you probablly know he is a cat sailor as well.



This is a good thing. He is topnotch and good people.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #255039
11/20/12 11:39 AM
11/20/12 11:39 AM
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Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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US Sailing just published the "Why we didn't win any medals in the 2012 Olympics and what we recommend be done about it for 2016" report:

Olympic Review Panel Report

The recommendations are of particular interest. It will be interesting to see what gets implemented.

Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #255040
11/20/12 11:45 AM
11/20/12 11:45 AM
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Mark Schneider Offline
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Final point...
(for those who don't want to buy an Olympic service or those that think US Sailing should only run olympics.//)

Your dues do not support Olympic development or Olympic Sailing... that branch will raise that money independently.

US Sailing picks and hires the leasdership... now Josh Adams... who goes out and finds the money and runs the program getting athletes to the Olympics.


This is just BS tho.. US sailing is a volunteer run organization.. it's a club... you join as a member... you do not buy a service. If you value Olympics... you should join..


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: mbounds] #255042
11/20/12 11:48 AM
11/20/12 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by mbounds
US Sailing just published the "Why we didn't win any medals in the 2012 Olympics and what we recommend be done about it for 2016" report:

Olympic Review Panel Report

The recommendations are of particular interest. It will be interesting to see what gets implemented.


Recommendations.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: RickWhite] #255043
11/20/12 11:48 AM
11/20/12 11:48 AM
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Ding, I hate to say it, but yes. The key is to accept what you can't change and make the most of the opportunities that exist. There are more than most people would think, we just need to get some achievable goals that are shared with US Sailing's vision.

I don't know (or frankly care) about the accuracy or impact of your 80/20% comment. No one is getting rich at US Sailing, but to hire professionals, you have to pay them something close to what they'd earn in a normal business environment.

At the end of the day, I don't care how much they're paid. If they support us and work with us (which, by and large they do), that's money well spent.

Mike

Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: ksurfer2] #255044
11/20/12 11:54 AM
11/20/12 11:54 AM
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Naples, FL
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Now I'm really confused (but echo Karl's comments).

Can I get to an ISAF or Olympic event without being a USS member? Can I compete once I'm there?

Does USS do or offer anything for non-racing sailors?

Are USS coaches only for Olympic development teams/prospects/classes?

I like the USS sanctioned event concept (with judges, official results for DPN/Portsmouth calculations, etc) if for no other reason than it would help me settle an insurance claim if one popped up at one of those events

But all this hubris is good: we do need a healthy debate on where our money is going.

But we all have different ideas on the best purpose for the money.

So we voted on it, and maybe we weren't a large enough coalition to bully the big dogs, classes, manufacturers, whatever

so we bail and wish "doom and unmitigated failure" upon the organization. To our own peril, I suspect.

Of course, this is an oversimplification, and doesn't give credit to those who I know personally that have put a lot of effort into USS (Ding, Dub, Mike, you know who you are)

Last edited by waterbug_wpb; 11/20/12 11:55 AM.

Jay

Re: Alter Cup Notice from USS [Re: waterbug_wpb] #255047
11/20/12 12:20 PM
11/20/12 12:20 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Can I get to an ISAF or Olympic event without being a USS member? Can I compete once I'm there?

No .... its a club

Does USS do or offer anything for non-racing sailors?
Safety at Sea
Standards for sailing instruction and other stuff that I don't care about.



Are USS coaches only for Olympic development teams/prospects/classes?
Yes... but you could hire them privately I suppose.


I like the USS sanctioned event concept (with judges, official results for DPN/Portsmouth calculations, etc) if for no other reason than it would help me settle an insurance claim if one popped up at one of those events

That is the the point of having certification process in place AND protest committes deciding on the rule of sailing... Your insurance company will do what it does with that info.... Bad for you not to have the findings.


But all this hubris is good: we do need a healthy debate on where our money is going.

True .... but remember it's a CLUB... not a purchase from a vendor.
I don't care about disabled sailing... but i get it with my dues.

I care about Special Olympic sailing but it's a seperate thing from US Sailing... so be it.


But we all have different ideas on the best purpose for the money.
True... it's a club... you support the club if you agree with the overall goal or find one thing you value...



So we voted on it, and maybe we weren't a large enough coalition to bully the big dogs, classes, manufacturers, whateve

so we bail and wish "doom and unmitigated failure" upon the organization. To our own peril, I suspect.

Of course, this is an oversimplification, and doesn't give credit to those who I know personally that have put a lot of effort into USS (Ding, Dub, Mike, you know who you are)



Last edited by Mark Schneider; 11/20/12 12:22 PM.

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