So we have a chance to have sails that are
1 Lighter
2 Faster
3 of equal strength
4 of equal durability
5 less cost

And the sail cloth has been on the "list" for a long time. Suddenly someone makes a sail out of it and we need to kill it now!

I don't understand the issue here it sounds like win win.

Sails are temporary

All the same as in SMOD

is a box-rule F18 cheaper than a SMOD Wildcat?

I was under the impression that box-rule/formula class structure would allow for cheaper and more durable boats because of the flexibility of multiple manufacturers and materials?

Franck, please tell us what boat you sail? Obviously someone **** in your wheaties because they are using lighter, faster, more durable sails, have long boards and a wing mast section and are now beating you around the course.

There is no reason to limit the sail materials unless the intention is to reduce cost. That is CLEARLY not the case here, considering you are going to make illegal a number of existing sails. That is in the best interest of the manufacturers who sit on the technical committee!!!!

Making the boats more similar has nothing to do with it. The rules are designed to have flexibility for limited innovation. Otherwise everyone would still be sailing Hobie Tigers, and the F18 fleet in most of the U.S wouldn't be near as strong-the sail and rig innovations let F18's match or beat N20's that carry a carbon rig and more sail area.

Finally, someone can go out, pick up a used Tiger for $5K USD, stick a set of $3K long boards and high aspect rudders on the boat, put a nice new set of 2012 sails on and for less than $10K still have a very competitive F18. No it won't win championships because the people winning Nationals and World's are all pro's sailing the latest and greatest designs. Do you spend 300+ days a year on the water with coaching??? If not the platform doesn't matter and this fleet separation you are talking about is mostly a skill set issue.

I have just spoken to Peter Vink (Performance Sails) and all smoke and white Nacra Infusion sails have ALWAYS been made with 3mm cloth. There have been a very few 2.5mm sets in dark blue (they are no longer an available option), but these would remain legal as they are already measured under old cloth list specification.

Personally, I like the variation in designs in the F18 fleet. Some designs fit various crew weights/sailing styles better than others, and this is a good thing! Variation in designs and sails allows a wider range of sailors to find a setup that works for them, narrowing the gaps in the fleet, not increasing it.

My question is what is the submission and voting process for the proposed change in material list? I haven't seen anything from the international class.

I also feel like we need to stop fighting over things like the cloth list and focus on sailing. The fact that no US team that I have talked to can find a charter boat for the 2013 worlds is in my opinion much more important!

There is a good discussion going on on the international F-18 Facebook site too.

Franck, please tell us what boat you sail? Obviously someone **** in your wheaties because they are using lighter, faster, more durable sails, have long boards and a wing mast section and are now beating you around the course.

There is no reason to limit the sail materials unless the intention is to reduce cost. That is CLEARLY not the case here, considering you are going to make illegal a number of existing sails. That is in the best interest of the manufacturers who sit on the technical committee!!!!

Making the boats more similar has nothing to do with it. The rules are designed to have flexibility for limited innovation. Otherwise everyone would still be sailing Hobie Tigers, and the F18 fleet in most of the U.S wouldn't be near as strong-the sail and rig innovations let F18's match or beat N20's that carry a carbon rig and more sail area.

Finally, someone can go out, pick up a used Tiger for $5K USD, stick a set of $3K long boards and high aspect rudders on the boat, put a nice new set of 2012 sails on and for less than $10K still have a very competitive F18. No it won't win championships because the people winning Nationals and World's are all pro's sailing the latest and greatest designs. Do you spend 300+ days a year on the water with coaching??? If not the platform doesn't matter and this fleet separation you are talking about is mostly a skill set issue.

The Sailcoth list has been in place for a number of years now, it is not a new development. We are all working inside the rules and the rules control the development.

What is being attempted here by the Tech Committee and the secretary of the class is the make a change to the existing rules in order to prevent one of their rivals continuing to sell class legal sails.

Once again:- this is not a development issue. It is a commercially motivated attack on a sailmaker.

Is there some function in the forum to ignore someone?

Hi,
My name is Jay Glaser and I am a member of the F18 TechCom so I must be a muppet. Thanks for that Macca.

This post is my opinion not that of the class.

I sail an blue Infusion with my wife Pease. (see us on the cover of Helge Sach's new cat book) Before that we sailed a Capricorn. Before that a Tcat.
I also have a really cool Guck A4 which I don't sail nearly enough.
I have been built a few (1000) catamaran sails in the past 40yrs (in 1973 sails from the loft where I was working won the Toronto Tornado Worlds). I guess this means I am really old.
I currently own an extremely small loft in SoCal and am not connected to any of the big boat builders.
I have spent some time out sailing around as well as crawling around a loft floor.

Here is my opinion.

The cloth list came from developments in the Tornado class for the 2004 Athens Games. Some of the teams came up with a cloth that was within the rule but was perceived to be expensive and fragile (Cuben Fiber). Other teams with a lot of resources had special cloth manufactured exclusively for their use (2Xply Pen).
Both of these situations were thought to be bad for the continuing health of the class so along with the F18 class the cloth list was born by asking the main sailmakers in the classes what they were mostly using.
The list has worked pretty much as hoped with cloths added as things changed. I think that the class members don't feel that anyone can get an advantage from using a special "unobtainium" cloth.
Over a year ago the was some discussion about the list and the need to update it. Some of the cloths on the list are no longer in production and there were other cloths that both cloth and sail manufacturers thought should be added.
There was also input from class measurers who that the list was too large.
Last year I started asking the main cloth manufacturers about the current and future availability of cloths on the list.
Armed with that information a decision to par down the cloth list was made.
There are plenty of arguments out there about what does and doesn't work but I made my own decision (3mil PE only for M&J 3/4 nylon for spi) based on what I thought the teams pushing off the beach trying to get into the top half of silver fleet might want not the guys going for a WC podium spot. Talking to those guys I think they enjoy the steady development in the class. Great to have self tacking jibs, spinnaker launchers, better hull designs, modern fat head mains etc but I think you would see a decline in numbers if they felt they needed to buy a new set of sails every year because they thought theirs were blown out or not out of the cool new thing. They can still get class legal sails from any loft designed for their weight and sailing conditions. The lofts can get cloth from at least 4 different manufacturers. The market is still free but by operating in a more narrow confine hopefully the perception is the sailor makes the difference and not so much the sails or the boat. We also avoid the pitfalls of the Builders classes where sailors buy lots of "identical" product looking for a small advantage.

And it is all about perception because going back to the beginning the Cuben sails were not fragile or more expensive but that idea was promoted by the teams that had it to achieve a small psych advantage. The "unobtainium" factor.

The tech com is working on a defined path for getting new cloth on the list but it is not as easy as it sounds. As the class grows there are increasing commercial pressures we need to take into account as well as responsibility to the current owners who have invested in the class.

I would like to thank Olivier Bovyn and Don Findlay for their continued hard work on behalf of the class. Without them (and many unnamed others) we would not have the chance to sail in great places with such large numbers of our friends. We need to remember those who built the sandbox we all have so much fun playing in.
Sorry about the long post.
Jay Glaser