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Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: waterbug_wpb] #257711
02/21/13 03:04 PM
02/21/13 03:04 PM
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Mark Schneider Offline
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Jay

I think the rules are written as HONOR the ROW because the answer to your question is... it depends.

(Types of boats, skills of sailors... lowest common denominator of sailor on the course, etc etc etc)..
Honor ROW and call you own foul handle it...

Of course, there is a culture that develops... that defines the local understanding of what's too close, and how you behave. The feedback in the system that starboard supplies by hailing protest and then enforced by the PC (usually drawn from other sailors at the reggata) does the job of interpreting the RRS.

BUT this does not shift any responsiblity for Honor the ROW of Starbord and call your own fouls on yourself to the starbord ROW sailor.

A while back the one of the Hobie class NA's had a protest on Day 1 of the event that completely redefined the accepted common interpretation of honor xxx rule (I forget the detals).... The sailors complained a lot and then quickly adapted to the standard set by the PC at the championship. The rules did not change... the HONOR the rule interpetation was reset and then enforced at the National level by the the judge and jury. The sailors got an education... like it or not.. The standards of call your own and Honor ROW do not change and the sailors called the game the rest of the regatta....

It would appear that Jake believes that Starbord must call his foul or he did not foul and that is the standard that he uses. I assert that shifing responsiblity to starbord to call him is not the RRS.
We disagree.
YMMV.


crac.sailregattas.com
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Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Mark Schneider] #257712
02/21/13 03:06 PM
02/21/13 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Jay

I think the rules are written as HONOR the ROW because the answer to your question is... it depends.

(Types of boats, skills of sailors... lowest common denominator of sailor on the course, etc etc etc)..
Honor ROW and call you own foul handle it...

Of course, there is a culture that develops... that defines the local understanding of what's too close, and how you behave. The feedback in the system that starboard supplies by hailing protest and then enforced by the PC (usually drawn from other sailors at the reggata) does the job of interpreting the RRS.

BUT this does not shift any responsiblity for Honor the ROW of Starbord and call your own fouls on yourself to the starbord ROW sailor.

A while back the one of the Hobie class NA's had a protest on Day 1 of the event that completely redefined the accepted common interpretation of honor xxx rule (I forget the detals).... The sailors complained a lot and then quickly adapted to the standard set by the PC at the championship. The rules did not change... the HONOR the rule interpetation was reset and then enforced at the National level by the the judge and jury. The sailors got an education... like it or not.. The standards of call your own and Honor ROW do not change and the sailors called the game the rest of the regatta....

[b]It would appear that Jake believes that Starbord must call his foul or he did not foul and that is the standard that he uses. I assert that shifing responsiblity to starbord to call him is not the RRS.[/b]
We disagree.
YMMV.


+1


Pete Pollard
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'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Mark Schneider] #257713
02/21/13 03:22 PM
02/21/13 03:22 PM
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Jake Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider


It would appear that Jake believes that Starbord must call his foul or he did not foul and that is the standard that he uses. I assert that shifing responsiblity to starbord to call him is not the RRS.
We disagree.
YMMV.


I'm not sure I ever said anything like that. However, if I'm on starboard in this situation, I don't expect the port boat to KNOW that he fouled me so I want to make it clear since I am in THE controlling position. How can I expect him to know that he fouled me if I made a very slight change in my course to avoid him? Do I show up at the protest room later and tell them that "he should have known"? I'm pretty sure that won't get me very far in a protest.


Jake Kohl
Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Jake] #257716
02/21/13 04:30 PM
02/21/13 04:30 PM
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Mark Schneider Offline
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Quote
I don't expect the port boat to KNOW that he fouled me so I want to make it clear since I am in THE controlling position.

very true but You are not responsible here for the rule violation call.. You are responsible for holding port to HIS responsibilities by hailing protest (and to the rest of the fleet as well)... Port already violated the rules.. you are just asking him about the violation with protest...

It is ports responsibility to stay clear .. not to ask starboard ... did I foul you?... really?... oh well sorry here is my penalty. ... Port is arbitraging their risk/reward using the rules... which are absolute and clear.

The game builds the safety margin.. irrespective of the circumstances (that Jay picked out) in writing the rules this way.

by requiring Port to both stay clear AND honor that ROW by calling your own foul on yourself (without even asking starbord) the safety margins on the crosses are bigger.... because you call the foul on your self...

You do not call the foul on yourself contingent on what starbord says, thinks or does..... that is NOT honoring starbords right of way.

I learned this racing Pearson 30s as a kid and was dumbfounded when my skipper crossed another 30 cleanly but very closely and he ordered the two circles.... No hail of protest, no course change by starbord .... He told me to read the rules.... what part of honor did I not understand. It was HIS judgement that he had misjudged the cross and violated starbords ROW.... years later... I had a senior A class sailor do the same thing... cross cleanly and then do a circle.. I later asked why?.. "because I judged that I violated your ROW".

I see it this way.... the rules do not let me arbitrage my risk and responsibility in a ROW situation.

I fight like hell to live up to my responsibility just like those guys and the exact reading of the RRS ... its not easy in the heat of the moment and I push crosses and forget my responsibility to honor starbords ROW.

So... you sail your own race and call your own fouls...
I object to your arbitraging the rules for your tactical advantage. That is what you were doing in the OP (had you decided to push the cross)... You clearly agree you arbitrage the rules for the tactics in all of your calculations of 70 30 etc ... clear to cross. When you count on the Starbord boat to call your foul... you have once again arbitraged the rule for your tactical advantage.



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Mark Schneider] #257726
02/22/13 09:41 AM
02/22/13 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
It is ports responsibility to stay clear .. not to ask starboard ... did I foul you?... really?... oh well sorry here is my penalty. ... Port is arbitraging their risk/reward using the rules... which are absolute and clear.


I'm good with that, although sometimes I'm not sure if my cross was as "clean" as I think it was. I usually hope to cross at least one boatlength ahead of STBD in light/moderate wind/water conditions, and more in bigger wind/seas (to allow for faster closing speeds, hiccups in wind, etc).

The "window" method (if STB stays put in your jib window leading up to the cross) gives me a good indicator of the likelihood of a successful cross, but I am a bit more cautious these days and more likely to duck if there's any question...I'm not in the kind of competitive shape or competence to push my luck

And with so many rock-stars in the various fleets these days, if I am lucky enough to be in the mix I can't discount they may have to hunt me a little bit (to maintain their position against other rock stars) rather than let me cross and disrupt their wind


Jay

Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: waterbug_wpb] #257730
02/22/13 10:07 AM
02/22/13 10:07 AM
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David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
It is ports responsibility to stay clear .. not to ask starboard ... did I foul you?... really?... oh well sorry here is my penalty. ... Port is arbitraging their risk/reward using the rules... which are absolute and clear.


I'm good with that, although sometimes I'm not sure if my cross was as "clean" as I think it was. I usually hope to cross at least one boatlength ahead of STBD in light/moderate wind/water conditions, and more in bigger wind/seas (to allow for faster closing speeds, hiccups in wind, etc).

The "window" method (if STB stays put in your jib window leading up to the cross) gives me a good indicator of the likelihood of a successful cross, but I am a bit more cautious these days and more likely to duck if there's any question...I'm not in the kind of competitive shape or competence to push my luck

And with so many rock-stars in the various fleets these days, if I am lucky enough to be in the mix I can't discount they may have to hunt me a little bit (to maintain their position against other rock stars) rather than let me cross and disrupt their wind


There is a near foolproof way to tell if you can cross or not.

Avoiding Collisions

If the bearings move forward, the other vessel will cross ahead of you; if the bearings move aft the boat will cross behind you. If the bearings remain constaint, you have an issue. Using this method you can see from a long way off what your situation is. You can also tell immediatly if your situation has changed (header/lift). If the bearing is changing slowly you have a close cross, if the bearing is changing quickly then the cross is not an issue.



David Ingram
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Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Jake] #257732
02/22/13 10:13 AM
02/22/13 10:13 AM
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If you can see the lee side of the other boats sail, you are ahead.


Pete Pollard
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Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: pgp] #257734
02/22/13 10:23 AM
02/22/13 10:23 AM
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David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by pgp
If you can see the lee side of the other boats sail, you are ahead.


The only way that makes sense is if your going downwind. In that situation once you can see the lee side of their sails you've already crossed regardless of how near or far away you are. Or are you saying port should never cross starboard no matter what?


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Mark Schneider] #257735
02/22/13 10:28 AM
02/22/13 10:28 AM
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Clayton Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Jay

BUT this does not shift any responsiblity for Honor the ROW of Starbord and call your own fouls on yourself to the starbord ROW sailor.

It would appear that Jake believes that Starbord must call his foul or he did not foul and that is the standard that he uses. I assert that shifing responsiblity to starbord to call him is not the RRS.
We disagree.
YMMV.


This was stated first... then

[/quote]

"very true but You are not responsible here for the rule violation call.. You are responsible for holding port to HIS responsibilities by hailing protest (and to the rest of the fleet as well)... Port already violated the rules.. you are just asking him about the violation with protest..."
[/quote]

Is that not opposite? I've been reading this to try to understand what needs to happen but keep getting confused. One assertion is that Port can not cross in front of Starbord at all, then you need to have a couple of boatlengths. Port has to have Honor and not cross because Starb'd doesn't need to tell him he is in the way, then Starb'd needs to tell him he is wrong...


C'mon guys, if someone that doesn't sleep with a rule book is reading this, it is confusing.

On the one hand you need to be aggressive on the course to win, sailors use the rules to their advantage all the time. What is different in this instance? If I am a Starb'd boat and I get crossed by a port boat (a few boat lengths ahead) and it doesn't affect me in any way except it hurt my pride that he is ahead... I can protest him for sailing better than me?

This I gotta read.

C

Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Clayton] #257736
02/22/13 10:31 AM
02/22/13 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Clayton

C'mon guys, if someone that doesn't sleep with a rule book is reading this, it is confusing.

On the one hand you need to be aggressive on the course to win, sailors use the rules to their advantage all the time. What is different in this instance? If I am a Starb'd boat and I get crossed by a port boat (a few boat lengths ahead) and it doesn't affect me in any way except it hurt my pride that he is ahead... I can protest him for sailing better than me?

This I gotta read.

C


It does read that way doesn't it.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Jake] #257737
02/22/13 11:05 AM
02/22/13 11:05 AM
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Daytona Beach Florida
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You can protest anything or be protested for anything. That does not mean you will win or lose in the room. But I beleive the onus is on the port boat to prove that it did not cause the starboard boat to take corrective actions. So if your are going to cross make sure that it will be clean. Not just the way you look at it but also from the perspective of the starboard boat.
As stated before the rules are to be honored. That goes for both the boats. Calling protest should only be used when you HONESTLY feel you have been fouled. And calling Protest when there obviously was no foul is not honoring the rules.

Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: David Ingram] #257739
02/22/13 11:48 AM
02/22/13 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by pgp
If you can see the lee side of the other boats sail, you are ahead.


The only way that makes sense is if your going downwind. In that situation once you can see the lee side of their sails you've already crossed regardless of how near or far away you are. Or are you saying port should never cross starboard no matter what?


Think about it. If two boats are going to weather on opposite tacks, the boat ahead will be able to see just a sliver of the leeward side of the leading edge, particularly with a rotating mast (or the jib for that matter).

Last edited by pgp; 02/22/13 11:49 AM.

Pete Pollard
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Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: orphan] #257740
02/22/13 11:50 AM
02/22/13 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by orphan
You can protest anything or be protested for anything. That does not mean you will win or lose in the room. But I beleive the onus is on the port boat to prove that it did not cause the starboard boat to take corrective actions. So if your are going to cross make sure that it will be clean. Not just the way you look at it but also from the perspective of the starboard boat.
As stated before the rules are to be honored. That goes for both the boats. Calling protest should only be used when you HONESTLY feel you have been fouled. And calling Protest when there obviously was no foul is not honoring the rules.


That is something I think we can all agree with and something Jake has stated from the beginning.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: pgp] #257741
02/22/13 11:53 AM
02/22/13 11:53 AM
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Sorry, still not working for me. I'm sticking with the increasing or decreasing bearing rule.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: pgp] #257744
02/22/13 12:24 PM
02/22/13 12:24 PM
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Jake Offline OP
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Originally Posted by pgp
If you can see the lee side of the other boats sail, you are ahead.


If you can see the lee side of the other boat's sail, you have already crossed and it doesn't matter anymore.


Jake Kohl
Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Jake] #257745
02/22/13 12:31 PM
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Nope.

Leaners commonly use this observation in coastal racing to determine if they are gaining or losing to competition separated by any significant distance.


Pete Pollard
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Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Jake] #257746
02/22/13 12:39 PM
02/22/13 12:39 PM
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Isotope235 Offline
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The first Basic Principle in the rules reads:

"Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce. A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when competitors break a rule they will promptly take a penalty, which may be to retire."

In a hypothetical close crossing, Boat P (port) is expected to keep clear (rule 10).

If P fails in that obligation, then Boat S (starboard) is expected to protest (see rules 60 and 61).

If P honestly believes that she did not foul S, then P may sail on. Otherwise she is expected to take a penalty (see rule 44).

The rules do not place a burden of proof on either boat. A protest committee must find facts and act based on them. If S took avoiding action, then she must have had a genuine and reasonable apprehension of collision. If so, then P broke rule 10. If not, then P didn't. See ISAF Case 50.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: Isotope235] #257747
02/22/13 01:06 PM
02/22/13 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Isotope42
The first Basic Principle in the rules reads:

"Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce. A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when competitors break a rule they will promptly take a penalty, which may be to retire."

In a hypothetical close crossing, Boat P (port) is expected to keep clear (rule 10).

If P fails in that obligation, then Boat S (starboard) is expected to protest (see rules 60 and 61).

If P honestly believes that she did not foul S, then P may sail on. Otherwise she is expected to take a penalty (see rule 44).

The rules do not place a burden of proof on either boat. A protest committee must find facts and act based on them. If S took avoiding action, then she must have had a genuine and reasonable apprehension of collision. If so, then P broke rule 10. If not, then P didn't. See ISAF Case 50.

I hope that helps,
Eric


What took you so long Eric? :-)


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: David Ingram] #257753
02/22/13 01:51 PM
02/22/13 01:51 PM
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Jake Offline OP
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Originally Posted by David Ingram


What took you so long Eric? :-)


And, what?, volunteer for this abuse? ;-)


Jake Kohl
Re: Rules Question - two boats, starboard, overlapped...a-mark. [Re: pgp] #257754
02/22/13 01:52 PM
02/22/13 01:52 PM
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Jake Offline OP
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Originally Posted by pgp
Nope.

Leaners commonly use this observation in coastal racing to determine if they are gaining or losing to competition separated by any significant distance.



So they're not crossing but going parallel with each other? What if the other boat trims their sails in or out?


Jake Kohl
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