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Re: ROW Rules [Re: Todd_Sails] #258139
03/06/13 08:20 AM
03/06/13 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Just Todd
This reminds me precisely of what it's like to do the
'Rough Rider Regatta', especially when it used to go up the intercoastal waterway, for about a hundred miles.

There was usually a 'continuous obstruction' from the shallows outside the channel.

People that knew the rules played it fair, and sometimes a line of 3 or 4 boats would have to tack, b/c the lead boat was nearing the 'obstruction'- shallows.
That was usually about 10 boats out of 100+!

They even put the rule verbage in the NOR and R.I. at least one year.

Those were the days!


This discussion now is going to follow the playing by the rules discussion a couple of threads away.

The result was boat 1 jammed back to starboard and sat stalled until everyone was clear and gone. Boat 2 gained a few gray hairs but made the duck. Boat 3 continued on starboard lifted tack with nothing but a small pinch up to miss rubbing sides with 1.

99% of the racing that is done is for “fun” Rough riders for example, and in those events the starboard boats down the line all see what is coming and typically clear out before they have to play the boat handling game and start throwing rules. In a high level event there are those who add rule pushing for advantage to their skill set. Depending on the situation this can be considered a great tactical play and in others a dick move.

Boat 1 was knocked completely out of the race. Boat 3 did have to alter course to keep clear but the wind was extremely variable here and they lost essentially nothing in the process. Boat 1, if Jeff’s interpretation of the rules is correct, committed a foul. Boat 1 had to run a tack when they did so they do not feel they were at fault. Is it following the rules or a dick move for 3 to protest 1? How many of you guys would be happy to have to take time in the evening to sit in a protest room on this one?

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Re: ROW Rules [Re: mini] #258140
03/06/13 08:55 AM
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If I was boat 3 and only made a small course change, I would not protest boat 1 because they tacked back to starboard, fulfilling their obligation as a give way boat. The way you describe the incident it sounds like boat 2 might be most at fault for not either passing along the hail, or providing room for boat 1 to duck. I honestly don't think boat 3 was pushing the rules. They were a starboard tack boat and received no hail for room to tack.

In the situation you are describing, the pin end boat is taking a calculated risk with their starting position. If you get a good start, and the pin is slightly favored, you are first to the beach/pier and that can be a race winning move. If you don't get a good start, however, you need to be prepared to make a lot of painful ducks on port because you know there is going to be a line of boats that started further up the line and are all trying to hold all the way to the obstruction. This situation is very common when there is current relief against a shoreline.


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Re: ROW Rules [Re: Jeff.Dusek] #258141
03/06/13 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeff.Dusek
If I was boat 3 and only made a small course change, I would not protest boat 1 because they tacked back to starboard, fulfilling their obligation as a give way boat. The way you describe the incident it sounds like boat 2 might be most at fault for not either passing along the hail, or providing room for boat 1 to duck. I honestly don't think boat 3 was pushing the rules. They were a starboard tack boat and received no hail for room to tack.

In the situation you are describing, the pin end boat is taking a calculated risk with their starting position. If you get a good start, and the pin is slightly favored, you are first to the beach/pier and that can be a race winning move. If you don't get a good start, however, you need to be prepared to make a lot of painful ducks on port because you know there is going to be a line of boats that started further up the line and are all trying to hold all the way to the obstruction. This situation is very common when there is current relief against a shoreline.


Somebody has to start at the pin.

Again this is my question: If there is room to tack but not clear at what distance point etc is the requirement enforce to pass along or follow the hail? 1 might be able to pull off a full 180 tack to enact a duck or if 3 pushes its starboard rights 1 feels it cannot safely pull off a duck and has to immediately tack back into a no water situation.

My point above about people playing clean is if this went to a committee, it is likely to become pure speculation on the outcome at most events. This whole room to safely manouver really depends on the skill of the sailors in question. Who is pushing it, who is calling this issue and how do you judge being fair.

Re: ROW Rules [Re: Jeff.Dusek] #258143
03/06/13 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeff.Dusek
...it sounds like boat 2 might be most at fault for not ... providing room for boat 1 to duck.

Take another look at rule 20.2(c). It says:
"The hailed boat shall respond either by tacking as soon as possible, or by immediately replying "You tack" and then giving the hailing boat room to tack and avoid her."

In this scenerio, Boat 2 satisfied rule 20.2(c) by tacking. She is not required to give Boat 1 room to avoid her. In fact, if both boats had tried to duck Boat 3, Boat 1 might have been required to give Boat 2 room to avoid Boat 3 under rule 19.2(b).

Regards,
Eric

Re: ROW Rules [Re: Jake] #258145
03/06/13 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Jeff.Dusek
Without a proper hail there is no "line of obligation to provide room." Boat 3 was a starboard ROW boat. Boat 1 broke 10 or 13.


Why do I get the feeling that both mini and Jeff.Dusek were involved in this incident?


Not sure about this specific incident, but I know that it occurred frequently (almost every start) in the ACWS F18 NE fleet demo in Newport, where Jeff and I sailed different boats. While I am unaware of any dangerous incidents, the proximity of the Fort Adams seawall to a reaching start line meant that pin end boat was necessarily in close proximity to the seawall, and commonly invoked the obstruction rule/hail for tack by the next nearest boat. This cascaded down a few boats in one start. We generally all tacked in sequence, and in one instance we ducked the next nearest starboard boat that refused our hail (Jeff, 1 guess who that scofflaw was!...)-safe. Tactically, we figured that pressing the pin was a slow gambit. In subsequent instances, we and others, crowded the boat end, deciding that pin end was tactically a slow gambit. (In another instance, we just waited in the back, while the pack crowded and crabbed the boat end, and just heated up fast on port with a late start, and flew past a lot of people. That was our second best race of the day...)


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Re: ROW Rules [Re: mini] #258146
03/06/13 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by mini
Again this is my question: If there is room to tack but not clear at what distance point etc is the requirement enforce to pass along or follow the hail?

The important thing is for the sailors to look ahead and take action before they run out of water. Imagine Boat A is sailing close-hauled on starboard tack, approaching an obstruction that is not a mark, and that will require her to tack to pass it safely. She looks around and sees Boats B, C, and D, all astern and to windward. A realizes that she cannot tack and avoid Boat B. She can probably tack and cross Boat C, but given the shifty wind conditions, is not sure. A is confident that she can avoid Boat D. A then should hail both B and C individually, for room to tack (RRS 20.1).

Boat B then looks around, decides she needs to tack but realizes that she cannot tack and avoid Boat E, who is on B's weather hip. Boat B passes along the hail by requesting room to tack from Boat E (RRS 20.3).

Boat C decides she can continue straight, and alter course if necessary to give A room to avoid her. C responds to A's hail by replying "You tack" (RRS 20.2(c), second clause).

Boat E looks around, decides she needs to tack, and fortunately there is no boat preventing her from doing so. E responds to B's hail by tacking as soon as possible (RRS 20.2(c), first clause).

When E tacks, B must tack as soon as possible (RRS 20.2(c) and 20.2(d)).

When B tacks, A must tack as soon as possible (RRS 20.2(d)). Boat C must then give A room to tack and avoid her (RRS 20.2(c)).

To avoid incident, all this must play out before Boat A reaches the obstruction. Therefore, it is vitally important that she assess her situation and evaluate her needs and risks well before she has to maneuver. Not only must Boat A act herself, but she must hail early enough to give other boats time to act as well.

In the scenerio described, Boat 1 did not anticipate her needs well enough in advance, did not hail Boat 3 for necessary room, and consequently sailed into an untenable position. She had to make emergency maneuvers that cost her the race. Boat 2 did not protect herself by passing the hail on to Boat 3. As a result, she had to take a risky duck and wound up fouling Boat 3. Boat 2 should have taken a penalty. Boat 3 fulfilled her obligations under the rules. Because no boat hailed her for room, she was not required to give it. She acted to avoid contact as required by rule 14. She would have been entirely within her rights to protest Boat 2. Fortunately for Boat 3, her position in the race was not adversely affected.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Re: ROW Rules [Re: Isotope235] #258151
03/06/13 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by Jeff.Dusek
...it sounds like boat 2 might be most at fault for not ... providing room for boat 1 to duck.

Take another look at rule 20.2(c). It says:
"The hailed boat shall respond either by tacking as soon as possible, or by immediately replying "You tack" and then giving the hailing boat room to tack and avoid her."

In this scenerio, Boat 2 satisfied rule 20.2(c) by tacking. She is not required to give Boat 1 room to avoid her. In fact, if both boats had tried to duck Boat 3, Boat 1 might have been required to give Boat 2 room to avoid Boat 3 under rule 19.2(b).

Regards,
Eric


Absolutely agree with you about 20.2(c).

The way I was visualizing the scenario is that after 1 and 2 tacked to port, 2 was now a leeward ROW boat and boat 3 was an obstruction to 1 and 2. In that case, boat 2 can choose to duck 3, but if there is overlap she must give 1 room to duck as well (19.2(b)). Again, I think we're saying the same thing, just hard without a diagram!


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Re: ROW Rules [Re: Isotope235] #258152
03/06/13 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by mini
Again this is my question: If there is room to tack but not clear at what distance point etc is the requirement enforce to pass along or follow the hail?

The important thing is for the sailors to look ahead and take action before they run out of water. Imagine Boat A is sailing close-hauled on starboard tack, approaching an obstruction that is not a mark, and that will require her to tack to pass it safely. She looks around and sees Boats B, C, and D, all astern and to windward. A realizes that she cannot tack and avoid Boat B. She can probably tack and cross Boat C, but given the shifty wind conditions, is not sure. A is confident that she can avoid Boat D. A then should hail both B and C individually, for room to tack (RRS 20.1).

Boat B then looks around, decides she needs to tack but realizes that she cannot tack and avoid Boat E, who is on B's weather hip. Boat B passes along the hail by requesting room to tack from Boat E (RRS 20.3).

Boat C decides she can continue straight, and alter course if necessary to give A room to avoid her. C responds to A's hail by replying "You tack" (RRS 20.2(c), second clause).

Boat E looks around, decides she needs to tack, and fortunately there is no boat preventing her from doing so. E responds to B's hail by tacking as soon as possible (RRS 20.2(c), first clause).

When E tacks, B must tack as soon as possible (RRS 20.2(c) and 20.2(d)).

When B tacks, A must tack as soon as possible (RRS 20.2(d)). Boat C must then give A room to tack and avoid her (RRS 20.2(c)).

To avoid incident, all this must play out before Boat A reaches the obstruction. Therefore, it is vitally important that she assess her situation and evaluate her needs and risks well before she has to maneuver. Not only must Boat A act herself, but she must hail early enough to give other boats time to act as well.

In the scenerio described, Boat 1 did not anticipate her needs well enough in advance, did not hail Boat 3 for necessary room, and consequently sailed into an untenable position. She had to make emergency maneuvers that cost her the race. Boat 2 did not protect herself by passing the hail on to Boat 3. As a result, she had to take a risky duck and wound up fouling Boat 3. Boat 2 should have taken a penalty. Boat 3 fulfilled her obligations under the rules. Because no boat hailed her for room, she was not required to give it. She acted to avoid contact as required by rule 14. She would have been entirely within her rights to protest Boat 2. Fortunately for Boat 3, her position in the race was not adversely affected.

I hope that helps,
Eric


Excellent summary!


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Re: ROW Rules [Re: Jeff.Dusek] #258153
03/06/13 01:59 PM
03/06/13 01:59 PM
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Jeff writes

Excellent summary!


I add
of how the rules application make for an orderly transition on the water. This occurs when the rules are honored.

The rules were not dishonored and used as a weapon to blow one boat or two out of the game.


That of course may happen if someone does not plan ahead and know how the rules are supposed to work and behave accordingly as Eric makes very clear.

Enjoyed reading this one!


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Re: ROW Rules [Re: Mark Schneider] #258158
03/06/13 02:57 PM
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Eric,

Just a question on obligations here.

Every boat in line knew the wall was close. Boat 1 turned and hailed that they needed water and were going to tack. They did not specifically hail any boat, but it was heard down the line to at least the 6th boat. #2 and several others immediately initiated their own tacks to get clear. At the time water was called for 1 and 2 should have been clear. 3 rode the wind change and then forced the now port boat back into a tack. If formal hails were given and time presented for a response, literaly they would have almost had to start before the gun sounded if more than 2 boats were involved and they had to be handed down the line and not just generally hailed by the lead boat.

Re: ROW Rules [Re: mini] #258160
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While the rules apply quite well (surprisingly so) in the vast majority of on-the-water encounters, there are some pathological cases where they break down. A course with a starting line so close to an obstruction that boats have to avoid it immediately after starting is just asking for trouble. Race Committee should never set such a course. If RC is compelled to set that course by the Organizing Authority, I don't think I'd race there.

Re: ROW Rules [Re: Isotope235] #258199
03/07/13 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Isotope42
A course with a starting line so close to an obstruction that boats have to avoid it immediately after starting is just asking for trouble. Race Committee should never set such a course. If RC is compelled to set that course by the Organizing Authority, I don't think I'd race there.


Ummm, I'd say it's good that you didn't start this race here, with these guys...
[Linked Image]
Sorry to be snarky, but obstructions, even at starts, are routinely encountered situations, paricularly in sheltered waters. I kinda suck but race enough to know with the right experience, obstructions are interesting, strategic race course variables.


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Re: ROW Rules [Re: rexdenton] #258201
03/07/13 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by rexdenton
Ummm, I'd say it's good that you didn't start this race here, with these guys...
Sorry to be snarky, but obstructions, even at starts, are routinely encountered situations, paricularly in sheltered waters.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. All the ACWS races I watched had a reaching start followed by a short sprint to the first rounding mark. I don't recall ever seeing an obstruction in between the two as part of the course. Which race are you referring to?

If you can tell me where race committee routinely sets a starting line so close to an obstruction that boats must immediately tack to safely avoid it, then yes - I will add it to my list of places not to race.

Re: ROW Rules [Re: Isotope235] #258207
03/07/13 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by rexdenton
Ummm, I'd say it's good that you didn't start this race here, with these guys...
Sorry to be snarky, but obstructions, even at starts, are routinely encountered situations, paricularly in sheltered waters.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. All the ACWS races I watched had a reaching start followed by a short sprint to the first rounding mark. I don't recall ever seeing an obstruction in between the two as part of the course. Which race are you referring to?

If you can tell me where race committee routinely sets a starting line so close to an obstruction that boats must immediately tack to safely avoid it, then yes - I will add it to my list of places not to race.


The whole stadium racing format to try and get thing closer to the public is what will drive this. Look at the Extreme 40's they have this, although they also run special rules when it suits them.

Re: ROW Rules [Re: mini] #258209
03/07/13 04:37 PM
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The racing area will be constrained, yes, but Race Committee still should not set a course with a significant obstruction immediately beyond the starting line.

If RC does, then in answer to your previous question, boats may indeed need to start hailing for room to tack right after the starting signal.

Re: ROW Rules [Re: Isotope235] #258211
03/07/13 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Isotope42
The racing area will be constrained, yes, but Race Committee still should not set a course with a significant obstruction immediately beyond the starting line.

If RC does, then in answer to your previous question, boats may indeed need to start hailing for room to tack right after the starting signal.


...when they're all stacked up exposing a (difficult to avoid) situation where it's difficult to enforce a rule.


Jake Kohl
Re: ROW Rules [Re: Isotope235] #258212
03/07/13 06:59 PM
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Quote

If you can tell me where race committee routinely sets a starting line so close to an obstruction that boats must immediately tack to safely avoid it, then yes - I will add it to my list of places not to race.

The gold medal race for the 2008 Olympic Multi-hulls was set up in such a manner. The entire fleet except for Greece chose to start on port.
Bejing Olympics



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