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Re: life jackets [Re: David Ingram] #260272
06/11/13 04:18 PM
06/11/13 04:18 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
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Originally Posted by David Ingram


What the he!! has happened to us and when did we get so freaking delicate!?


probably the minute I asked for a 4:1 traveler...


Jay

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: life jackets [Re: David Ingram] #260273
06/11/13 04:34 PM
06/11/13 04:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Oh come on guys.... read between the lines.

The final result matters (probably to parents more then kids) ... so, you play the game using all of the rules on the books and count on the ref to make you a winner. Sailing is now just like any other sport. Working the ref is part of the gamesmanship in the game. The ethos of call your own foul has morphed into call protest and let the ref decide.... So... it is even better when you can shame the OA and PRO into calling the foul for you rather then be accused of violating safety rules.


Good grief Mark you can be a bit dramatic, you never bore me.

Problem is, Ding - he was spot on. Youth event; parents got up in the RC's grill and made a scene.

I wouldn't have believed it until I was a judge at the Opti Nationals last year. Opti parents (and paid coaches) are the worst thing that's ever happened to youth sailing.

Re: life jackets [Re: Pirate] #260277
06/11/13 08:42 PM
06/11/13 08:42 PM
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brucat Offline
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I did warn you about that, Matt...

Of course, they can also be your best friends, especially if you're the PRO, and you only have three mark boats, and it's blowing 20+ knots, and there are 100 boats. It's like any sport, you get the bad with the good.

A more interesting dilemma here is, who is more unsportsmanlike? The protestor, or the person who chooses to flaunt the rules he chooses not to respect?

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 06/11/13 09:52 PM.
Re: life jackets [Re: mbounds] #260278
06/11/13 10:18 PM
06/11/13 10:18 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Quote

I wouldn't have believed it until I was a judge at the Opti Nationals last year. Opti parents (and paid coaches) are the worst thing that's ever happened to youth sailing.


Why?

You can't have it both ways.... Sailing is just like basketball or any other sport now. Every game we watch on TV has the coach going apes...t when they think they can push an angle to the ref. The announcer applauds his actions. The fans talk about what a great coach he is.. He is viewed as being just as much on the court as the players. The player believes that you have a coach to engage in the battles. The days of the competitor going into the room by themselves are over.... Farah Hall regrets to this day... her decision to not have council going into her protest hearing for the windsurf trials.... changes were made in the due process system.

The Corinthian ethos is gone.... replaced by the "push the rules and make the other guy or the pc committee call me on it". So, for the opti moms... All they know is that if you don't call it...the other kids gets by on the system and your kid loses.

Yes Dave, the ethics of the game have changed enormously...


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: life jackets [Re: Pirate] #260279
06/11/13 10:28 PM
06/11/13 10:28 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 186
wildtsail7 Offline
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Matt,

I am personally offended by your general statement and believe it shows complete ignorance for how the Opti class operates.
As someone who coaches one of the most elite opti teams throughout the year I admit there are some coaches that cause a problem but for the most part the goods outweigh the bads and I am proud to say that the opti kids coming out of the US system now are generally getting better with every year. Our last worlds team (which I have coached kids that got 7th and 12th) was the highest placing worlds team in US history.
As a one time "opti nationals" judge it is completely ignorant for you to pass judgment on this one experience. I believe that Mike may have had a similar opinion at first (as did I) but as you become to know the system you will understand more on how it works. There will always be overbearing parents and coaches, as there will be in every sport. Some kids will benefit from this and some will get negative experience from this. But generally the paid coaches are all growing the sailors and the parents are supporting the kids (morally and financially) more than any of our parents ever did. When I first started I swore my kids would never sail Optis in the current system. Now that I have been around for several years I would not want my kids to miss out on all the awesome opportunities and would put lots of effort in for them to get the most out of this experience as do so as all the current Opti parents do.

-Todd Riccardi

Re: life jackets [Re: wildtsail7] #260280
06/11/13 10:37 PM
06/11/13 10:37 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
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Originally Posted by wildtsail7
Matt,

I am personally offended ..... I would not want my kids to miss out on all the awesome opportunities and would put lots of effort in for them to get the most out of this experience as do so as all the current Opti parents do.

-Todd Riccardi


I am personally offended at the thought of you procreating (That means having kids, Ricky).


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: life jackets [Re: Pirate] #260281
06/11/13 10:44 PM
06/11/13 10:44 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 186
wildtsail7 Offline
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At least my kids won't be the offspring of a dumb redneck.
And having kids for me is a hypothetical situation, not in the cards for a very long time, just saying. And I just got back from having a few drinks.

Re: life jackets [Re: wildtsail7] #260288
06/12/13 06:47 AM
06/12/13 06:47 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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Detroit, MI
Originally Posted by wildtsail7
And I just got back from having a few drinks.
And I think that's reflected in your rant, Todd.

I saw what I saw - enough bad behavior by parents, children and coaches to go around. From parents getting up into my face ("Why was my child disqualified!!!!" "Because he didn't show up to a protest hearing where he was being protested - twice."); to coaches feigning ignorance of when races were going to start and failing to get "behind the line", delaying the start for everyone; to blatant cheating by competitors ("But that's how my coach taught me to do it!"). There was even a fistfight between competitors on the launch ramp when one butted in line.

Yes, there were some bright moments - the girls behaved much better than the boys, but all in all, the experience left a sour taste in my mouth.

I'm sorry you're offended, Todd, but you've been drinking the Kool-Aid (among other things). You're part of the system of escalating expense and winning at all cost that spoils the experience for a lot of kids who may be talented, but can't afford the accouterments (like an Opti that costs as much as a brand-new Hobie 16 or a full-time paid coach).

When did we forget that the whole purpose of this was for the kids to have fun sailing? (not winning)

Re: life jackets [Re: Pirate] #260290
06/12/13 07:25 AM
06/12/13 07:25 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
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brucat Offline
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I agree with Todd, and with Matt. It's not a black and white issue. As RC and jury for all levels of youth sailing, I've seen all of the things Matt mentioned, and have even witnessed kids being sent home for drinking. And of course, the parents blamed the OA for being too harsh (a quick reminder that the next option was to call the cops ended that debate).

Back on topic, I never answered the original question. I have an old Kokotat with a million pockets that I love.

Mike

Re: life jackets [Re: wildtsail7] #260294
06/12/13 08:34 AM
06/12/13 08:34 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
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ksurfer2 Offline
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tampa, fl
Originally Posted by wildtsail7
And having kids for me is a hypothetical situation


Due mostly to your hypothetical girlfriend.


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: life jackets [Re: Pirate] #260296
06/12/13 09:13 AM
06/12/13 09:13 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
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brucat Offline
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Well, he did go out drinking and came home to post here. Do we really need a map to figure this out?

Mike

Re: life jackets [Re: wildtsail7] #260297
06/12/13 10:25 AM
06/12/13 10:25 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
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Originally Posted by wildtsail7
At least my kids won't be the offspring of a dumb redneck.


Just a DUMBA$$.
Like Karl the first said, you need to take that first step and actually go out on a date (girl or boy you can choose, but the boy will make the kid thing difficult, hypothetically.)

p.s. The offspring of this "dumb redneck" just got principal's list, Straight A's for the entire year and highest GPA.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: life jackets [Re: mbounds] #260298
06/12/13 10:30 AM
06/12/13 10:30 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Originally Posted by mbounds

I'm sorry you're offended, Todd, but you've been drinking the Kool-Aid (among other things). You're part of the system of escalating expense and winning at all cost that spoils the experience for a lot of kids who may be talented, but can't afford the accouterments (like an Opti that costs as much as a brand-new Hobie 16 or a full-time paid coach).

When did we forget that the whole purpose of this was for the kids to have fun sailing? (not winning)


This sums up the Opti thing very nicely. I agree 100%.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: life jackets [Re: wildtsail7] #260299
06/12/13 10:32 AM
06/12/13 10:32 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Originally Posted by wildtsail7
At least my kids won't be the offspring of a dumb redneck.
And having kids for me is a hypothetical situation, not in the cards for a very long time, just saying. And I just got back from having a few drinks.


Holy crap, that's a relief. You look way too young to be having ankle-grommets running around...

Had I reproduced before I was 35, I'm sure I would have set myself on fire long ago... At least now I'm mature enough to realize that if I tough it out long enough, they may grow to be helpful crew.

The ideal of course would be for them to marry uber-wealthy folk so I can have my own Gunboat 110 with jaccuzzi and helicopter pad (Timbo's gonna be my pilot/cabin boy), but I'm putting the cart before the horse a bit...


Jay

Re: life jackets [Re: mbounds] #260300
06/12/13 10:40 AM
06/12/13 10:40 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Originally Posted by mbounds


When did we forget that the whole purpose of this was for the kids to have fun sailing? (not winning)


The same thing has happened in every sport I can think of, with "travel" teams, private coaching, etc. I mean, EVERY sport you can think of, not just the mainstream stuff (soccer, football, hockey)... Like ballet, Archery, martial arts (seeing 8 year olds go all ninja is pretty cool, though)... I mean REALLY? Is winning a pickle dish and your name in lights more important than skill development and sportsmanship?



Jay

Re: life jackets [Re: waterbug_wpb] #260301
06/12/13 11:58 AM
06/12/13 11:58 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Quote
I mean REALLY? Is winning a pickle dish and your name in lights more important than skill development and sportsmanship?


What world do you live in?

Yes it matters more then skill development! The piece of paper is how you get to the next step. It goes on the resume!

the assumption is that if you have the paper... you have "good enough skills" AND the "powers that be" have covered their butt because you have the papers. (The modern day peter principle)

Re sportsmanship... Well that is ALL in the eye of the beholder.. How is sailing sportsmanship any different then basketball sportsmanship in 2013... The Corinthian ethos of sportsmanship is very different then the other games we play and it is now an historical relic.

Opti moms are no different the Football dads ... or Tennis or Golf parents (see parents of Serena and Venus Williams. and see Tiger Woods for how to succeed in country club sports like Sailing)

So, is the world Opti program doing a good job... Depends on your point of view. Todd R is absolutely right... the Opti program is meeting the demand of the parents and sailors.

Matt's upset is that his expectation was not met and the fun factor of his volunteering went to zero.... (now off to our Junior Olympics meeting to run an event for Opti mom's and Hobie 16 parents.. the ying and yang of the sailing world.)



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: life jackets [Re: Pirate] #260302
06/12/13 12:29 PM
06/12/13 12:29 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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Solomon's Island, MD
Wow, how'd this thread get so far off track?

Mike, Todd R., Todd H, and Mark, what life jackets are you wearing? Now that I have re-learned how to properly tack after doing so incorrectly for over half a decade, life jacket thickness directly affects to time from wire to wire, assuming waves don't throw me from my feet.



Scorpion F18
Re: life jackets [Re: Pirate] #260303
06/12/13 01:36 PM
06/12/13 01:36 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 186
wildtsail7 Offline
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wildtsail7  Offline
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Posts: 186
Matt,
You really shouldn't go on a public forum and flame a class that you do not have a full perspective on. You are hurting the reputation Opti Class and catamaran class at the same time.
I'm not going to respond in detail to your post because this isn't the place..
1)you've obviously already made up your mind to be anti-opti
2)you obviously have no idea what you are talking about, and if you want to disagree than just look at your comment about a new opti costing as much as a new Hobie 16. A new Opti starts at around $1,800 (club), $2,400 (decent race boat or charter boat) and goes up to around $3,500 (brand new import or custom boat). A new Hobie 16 retails for around $11,000.
3)You think full time coaches are so expensive? Our cost per sailor for an 8 hour day of sailing is $40-60 and the coach to sailor ratio is never above 7:1 and usually it's 5:1. That's a max of $480 for 1 day of practice for 2 months (what many of these kids do). I've paid more than $480 for a long weekend of coaching for myself.
And just FYI Opti Nationals are not the cream of the crop Opti sailors. I've been at the last 3 Opti Team Trials which is the best kids in the country and I think you were be surprised to see the difference in these kids were the kids at nationals and local regattas. There is a large contigent of opti parents, sailors, and coaches that you have obviously seen and stereotyped this class. However, this is not the majority and definitely not the top of the class.

Back to the topic... Sam I wear a Magic Marine CE lifejackt that I love. Most of our fleet wears CE jackets but some of the top sailors wear inflatable USCG approved lifejackets. Personally I think this is sketchy but the arguement could be made that they could swim out from under the boat easily (as long as they aren't unconcious).

Last edited by wildtsail7; 06/12/13 01:40 PM.
Re: life jackets [Re: Pirate] #260304
06/12/13 02:12 PM
06/12/13 02:12 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
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brucat Offline
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Kokotat (see prior post). Old and not thin, but at least no external straps.

Mike

Re: life jackets [Re: Pirate] #260305
06/12/13 02:16 PM
06/12/13 02:16 PM
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Posts: 3,969
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brucat Offline
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Todd, you missed a great weekend in Newport. Wish you had been there.

Mike

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