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Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: Jake] #261252
07/12/13 06:51 AM
07/12/13 06:51 AM
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
ETNZ had to know that.

ETNZ argued that Protocol 15.4(e): "The Jury shall act ... with the following powers in resolving disputes,... to make orders regarding the conduct of the Event to enforce and give effect to the Rules and decisions of the Jury" gives the Jury the power to enforce (or not enforce) a rule to resolve a dispute. That is certainly no bigger stretch than other arguments made by ACRM and GGYC regarding Protocol 15.4(b) and 15.4(h).

The Jury, however, interpreted the rules literally and limited its own power accordingly. I give the members full marks for that.

ACRM and GGYC, however, have now said that the competitors must "voluntarily" accept the safety recommendations or there will be no regatta. That hardly sounds voluntary to me. ETNZ, LR, and Oracle have all acceded though, stating their support of safety.

Keeping the larger elevator requirement without allowing the foils to extend outside the hull profile, however, has left Artemis out in the cold. Since the Jury did not grant Artemis an exception, ETNZ has proposed that the other teams agree to it instead. That would permit Artemis to use their symmetric rudder elevators. We'll have to see if LR and Oracle agree - and if not, why not.

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Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: Isotope235] #261254
07/12/13 07:43 AM
07/12/13 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Isotope42

ACRM and GGYC, however, have now said that the competitors must "voluntarily" accept the safety recommendations or there will be no regatta. That hardly sounds voluntary to me. ETNZ, LR, and Oracle have all acceded though, stating their support of safety.

"or there will be no regatta"
That's painting the picture with a broad stroke. This is really a bunch of media noise. Fact is OR, LR and NZ are in and racing, therefore we have a cup.

USCG issued a permit, you agree to it or you rescind it and get another one. Murray would do it in a second if he has to.

Bottle of your favorite rum bets that all the teams "agree" to change the class rule so that Artemis gets to race.


Philip
USA #1006
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: Isotope235] #261258
07/12/13 07:59 AM
07/12/13 07:59 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by Jake
ETNZ had to know that.

ETNZ argued that Protocol 15.4(e): "The Jury shall act ... with the following powers in resolving disputes,... to make orders regarding the conduct of the Event to enforce and give effect to the Rules and decisions of the Jury" gives the Jury the power to enforce (or not enforce) a rule to resolve a dispute. That is certainly no bigger stretch than other arguments made by ACRM and GGYC regarding Protocol 15.4(b) and 15.4(h).

The Jury, however, interpreted the rules literally and limited its own power accordingly. I give the members full marks for that.

ACRM and GGYC, however, have now said that the competitors must "voluntarily" accept the safety recommendations or there will be no regatta. That hardly sounds voluntary to me. ETNZ, LR, and Oracle have all acceded though, stating their support of safety.

Keeping the larger elevator requirement without allowing the foils to extend outside the hull profile, however, has left Artemis out in the cold. Since the Jury did not grant Artemis an exception, ETNZ has proposed that the other teams agree to it instead. That would permit Artemis to use their symmetric rudder elevators. We'll have to see if LR and Oracle agree - and if not, why not.


Interesting - so what are the opportunities for the race management to protest a boat for building outside the class rule if the competitors agree to not protest against them? (I hope none).


Jake Kohl
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: bacho] #261265
07/12/13 08:48 AM
07/12/13 08:48 AM
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Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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Originally Posted by bacho
LR didn't really look like they were hitting on all cylinders yesterday, my money is on ETNZ for tomorrow.


I'll skip all the way to the end; I think the Cup is going to New Zealand.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #261267
07/12/13 09:08 AM
07/12/13 09:08 AM
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itbvolks Offline
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I'm surprised no one is talking about Coutts's response to the rudder design and impact on the water (in one of Philip's video's posted a couple days or so ago) and his take on boat stability vs speed. There's so little info out on how Oracle is running - it's going to be interesting to see this play out.

That said, I've been very impressed with ETNZ thus far. Professional and look to have the boat well sorted. I'm just glad to see we're going to be doing some racing!

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #261268
07/12/13 09:08 AM
07/12/13 09:08 AM
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Sorry - double.

Last edited by itbvolks; 07/12/13 09:11 AM.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: John Williams] #261269
07/12/13 09:25 AM
07/12/13 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by bacho
LR didn't really look like they were hitting on all cylinders yesterday, my money is on ETNZ for tomorrow.


I'll skip all the way to the end; I think the Cup is going to New Zealand.


I'm not 100% sold on that just yet but admit it is a definite possibility. Regardless, I bet the next cup is also on multihulls (a little smaller and truely less expensive) with a rule designed for foiling.


Jake Kohl
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: John Williams] #261271
07/12/13 10:04 AM
07/12/13 10:04 AM
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by bacho
LR didn't really look like they were hitting on all cylinders yesterday, my money is on ETNZ for tomorrow.


I'll skip all the way to the end; I think the Cup is going to New Zealand.


Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle, I agree. There is always breakdown attrition, but you'd hope with all the money involved these guys would have that covered.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
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If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #261273
07/12/13 10:26 AM
07/12/13 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by bacho
LR didn't really look like they were hitting on all cylinders yesterday, my money is on ETNZ for tomorrow.


I'll skip all the way to the end; I think the Cup is going to New Zealand.


Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle, I agree. There is always breakdown attrition, but you'd hope with all the money involved these guys would have that covered.


Have you seen anything that says Oracle is behind in speed or are we just talking about the foiling gybe?


Jake Kohl
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #261274
07/12/13 10:38 AM
07/12/13 10:38 AM
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Dalton seemed reasonably impressed with Oracle's foiling in the light wind yesterday during his comments regarding the rudder ruling.

I'm still undecided. ETNZ seems to be ahead at this point but I'm going to assume Oracle has some time now - 2 boats - and good weather to get sorted.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #261275
07/12/13 10:52 AM
07/12/13 10:52 AM
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This video adds some good perspective to it all. My thoughts are how do you hide it when your about to gybe or tack? This part will be interesting. Additionally, this is match racing, how will the techniques change when you are covering at these speeds. You fake a gybe and your challenger might ram into your butt. These things don't have brakes.



Philip
USA #1006
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #261277
07/12/13 11:11 AM
07/12/13 11:11 AM
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That video appears to show that Oracle has better ride height control. When they're foiling (both boats) in that video, they are foiling but still very close to the water. I would think this has some aero advantages. I think ETNZ has just been more on the front page about technology and performance so we naturally start to see them as the ones to beat. I'm not sure we will have this figured out until, at earliest, the first race between the defender and the final challenger.


Jake Kohl
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: Jake] #261278
07/12/13 11:25 AM
07/12/13 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by bacho
LR didn't really look like they were hitting on all cylinders yesterday, my money is on ETNZ for tomorrow.


I'll skip all the way to the end; I think the Cup is going to New Zealand.


Unless there has been some SERIOUS sandbagging on the part of Oracle, I agree. There is always breakdown attrition, but you'd hope with all the money involved these guys would have that covered.


Have you seen anything that says Oracle is behind in speed or are we just talking about the foiling gybe?


Control and speed from all the vids I've seen all play to ETNZ,hands down, and I was rooting for Oracle, so I don't think I'm BS'ing myself.

Have you seen any vid of Oracle with a realtime speed overlay hit 43 knots? Or just a realtime speed overlay for that matter, hence the sandbagging comment. I hope I'm wrong.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #261280
07/12/13 11:36 AM
07/12/13 11:36 AM
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orphan Offline
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When does Oracle have to measure in thier boat? Because it sounds like they will need to make the rudder fixed at that point.
Or will we have one more protest?

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: orphan] #261282
07/12/13 12:00 PM
07/12/13 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by orphan
When does Oracle have to measure in thier boat? Because it sounds like they will need to make the rudder fixed at that point.
Or will we have one more protest?


As I understand it, Oracle has compliant rudders and its just a matter of which ones to use.


Jake Kohl
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #261283
07/12/13 12:03 PM
07/12/13 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever


Have you seen any vid of Oracle with a realtime speed overlay hit 43 knots? Or just a realtime speed overlay for that matter, hence the sandbagging comment. I hope I'm wrong.


I'm not sure how you say they're sandbagging if we haven't seen any speed data. I certainly haven't and I doubt they would put that out there anyway. I have no idea how fast Oracle is and I have no idea how much ETNZ is capable of (I would be shocked if they were genuinely full out in the one boat races so far). I'm still full of shrugs.


Jake Kohl
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #261284
07/12/13 12:21 PM
07/12/13 12:21 PM
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Live broadcast from Oracle's Maker Camp NOW


Philip
USA #1006
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #261285
07/12/13 12:54 PM
07/12/13 12:54 PM
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itbvolks Offline
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Check out 4:40 in the Dancing With Your Sister vid of the daggerboard controls ;-)

Right height control is your friend!

Last edited by itbvolks; 07/12/13 12:57 PM.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: itbvolks] #261286
07/12/13 01:16 PM
07/12/13 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by itbvolks
Check out 4:40 in the Dancing With Your Sister vid of the daggerboard controls ;-)

Right height control is your friend!


I'll have to check that out. Ride height is important from an aero and foil efficiency perspective. If your ride height is so high that the tip of the foil is coming out of the water, it's AOA (angle of attack) is high and inefficient. I bet we'll see ETNZ foil lower when (if) they get behind.


Jake Kohl
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #261287
07/12/13 01:29 PM
07/12/13 01:29 PM
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itbvolks Offline
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Look close at the AOA changes real time...


Must be keeping Jimmie busy.

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