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Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #263722
09/12/13 07:28 PM
09/12/13 07:28 PM
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Timbo Offline
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Gary Jobson also pointed out that ETNZ was running a tall, skinny jib, vs. Oracle's shorter, wider jib. One thing about a self tacking jib, the foot has to be shorter than the distance from the mast base to the tack point.

I'm not sure that the jib Oracle was using today had a short enough foot for use with a self tacker. Do they even have a taller, blade type jib? And why don't they have a self tacker anyway?


Blade F16
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-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #263723
09/12/13 07:44 PM
09/12/13 07:44 PM
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samc99us Offline
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The only engineering data supporting a lower aspect jib is the higher Reynolds number encountered (not even a factor at these speeds), and the only other possible reason is purely down to wing design (I'm not a C-class guy sorry).

Higher aspect jib is less draggy, and obviously the self-tacker is faster in umm, the tacks! So WTF Oracle??


Scorpion F18
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: mbounds] #263724
09/12/13 08:02 PM
09/12/13 08:02 PM
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
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Originally Posted by mbounds
Originally Posted by Jake
According to Ken Read, we don't yet have these self tacking setups on modern boats.

Except that they've been on Stars for what? 40 years?


And beach cats for 12 years.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #263725
09/12/13 08:31 PM
09/12/13 08:31 PM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by mbounds
Originally Posted by Jake
According to Ken Read, we don't yet have these self tacking setups on modern boats.

Except that they've been on Stars for what? 40 years?


And beach cats for 12 years.



^^THIS^^ (that was what I was getting at).

We don't have self tackers because the crew has too much to do. We have them because they trim immediately and help draw the bow down through the tack. I put in requests downwind and have Ted sing me songs while we sail and tack upwind.


Jake Kohl
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #263727
09/12/13 11:36 PM
09/12/13 11:36 PM
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brucat Offline
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What's that sound? Nothing, that's just the fat lady, who's all warmed up and ready for this weekend...

Time to start working on those Kiwi accents, boys...

Mike

PS: Not to defend Kenny, but I thought he said "normal" boats don't have self-tackers. Not that that's any better, really...

Also, according to Gary, my Wave should out-tack a H16? Cool...

Last edited by brucat; 09/12/13 11:38 PM.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #263728
09/13/13 01:35 AM
09/13/13 01:35 AM
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Not surprising after all the Artemis mistakes:

"Percy has already signed on to sail with him, assuming the role of team manager and succeeding Cayard, Tornqvist said today."
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-...cup-imperils-sailors-pursuing-speed.html

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #263732
09/13/13 05:57 AM
09/13/13 05:57 AM
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On the Water
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Race Stats

RACE 6 DATA
Course: 5 Legs/10.14 nautical miles
Elapsed Time: ETNZ – 31:39, OTUSA – 32:26
Delta: ETNZ +:47
Total distance sailed: ETNZ – 12.3 NM, OTUSA – 12.3 NM
Average Speed: ETNZ – 23.43 knots (27 mph), OTUSA – 22.91 knots (26 mph)
Top Speed: ETNZ – 38.55 knots (44 mph), OTUSA – 40.21 knots (46 mph)
Windspeed: Average – 11.6 knots, Peak – 13.4 knots

RACE 7 DATA
Course: 5 Legs/10.14 nautical miles
Elapsed Time: ETNZ – 24:48, OTUSA – 25:54
Delta: ETNZ +1:06
Total distance sailed: ETNZ – 11.6 NM, OTUSA – 12.0 NM
Average Speed: ETNZ – 28.32 knots (32 mph), OTUSA – 27.86 knots (32 mph)
Top Speed: ETNZ – 44.73 knots (51 mph), OTUSA – 41.00 knots (47 mph)
Windspeed: Average – 16.3 knots, Peak – 17.8 knots


Philip
USA #1006
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #263733
09/13/13 05:58 AM
09/13/13 05:58 AM
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Philip
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Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #263734
09/13/13 05:59 AM
09/13/13 05:59 AM
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Philip
USA #1006
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: Jake] #263735
09/13/13 06:58 AM
09/13/13 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by itbvolks
I just don't understand the slow tacks....

Looking all but sealed up. Needed to win both races today...


It's hard to tell from only seeing the boats on TV, but according to Gary Jobson, the Kiwi hulls are rounder, fuller, and floats higher, so it tacks faster. He said the Oracle boat is skinny (you see how much more often they dig their bows in) and it slows down more every time they tack.


Floats higher? hah. The self tacking jib has a good bit to do with it too. You can watch the oracle jib sheet out past an upwind setting and get reeled in as the boat gets moving. The NZ jib, on a self tacker, hits it's other side and stops and helps bring the bows down. According to Ken Read, we don't yet have these self tacking setups on modern boats.

I also think NZ is doing something different with their daggerboards in the tacks. Oracle just gets a weird bow-down attitude when it is head to wind...it's strange. I've seen them submerge the bow on tacks and I can't figure out what's going on.


The self tacking jib probably helps marignally in and of itself. The real adavantage comes from having the 2 guys oracle has gringing on the front sail available to work the foils and mainsail so their boat attitude stays true and the main comes over faster.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #263740
09/13/13 07:41 AM
09/13/13 07:41 AM
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I do have to give huge credit to JS and the team for the dramatic turnaround in starts. They went from being completely trounced at the start of the series, to owning the starts and really frustrating DB.

If they can pull such a turnaround with their upwind performance, we have a chance. Otherwise, bring back the foiling tacks and any other crazy stunts for the entertainment value...

Mike

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #263743
09/13/13 09:41 AM
09/13/13 09:41 AM
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Long Beach, California
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You guys can still feel some national pride - we have more US guys on the ETNZ design team than Oracle has on the boat.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: John Williams] #263744
09/13/13 09:43 AM
09/13/13 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by John Williams
You guys can still feel some national pride - we have more US guys on the ETNZ design team than Oracle has on the boat.


Hah. True that. It's some of the same guys that put a lot of our current boats on paper. I just have my fingers crossed that NZ will stay with some sort of multihull and learn from this iteration. Given their background, they should be pretty focused on cost effective rules so we have the possibility of seeing sizable fleets again.


Jake Kohl
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #263745
09/13/13 09:59 AM
09/13/13 09:59 AM
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At the dock out show yesterday I talked to one of the Oracle designers. I asked him why they didn't go with a self tracker on the jib and he said that it was a decision made early in the design process to help keep weight down and he said that the sailors wanted the option of backwinding it for maneuverability. Unfortunately it appears to be a major downfall off the boat. You can see the whole rig move when the pop the jib during a tack. I also asked if the kiwis can tack faster because of the additional rocker in their hulls and he mentioned that the boats had "almost the same amount of rocker but the tacks are all about foil work." Maybe if the jib grinders were able to adjust foils instead you'd see similar performance.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #263746
09/13/13 10:02 AM
09/13/13 10:02 AM
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I've spoken to quite a few kiwis out here who have been good natured and graceful in victory (totally unlike those kiwi fans on the Internet, my God twitter is horrible) and they all seem to think that it will stay in multihulls . It seems that everyone thinks that a smaller 72 would be perfect. Something like a 60 or 55.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: Jake] #263747
09/13/13 10:02 AM
09/13/13 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by John Williams
You guys can still feel some national pride - we have more US guys on the ETNZ design team than Oracle has on the boat.


Hah. True that. It's some of the same guys that put a lot of our current boats on paper. I just have my fingers crossed that NZ will stay with some sort of multihull and learn from this iteration. Given their background, they should be pretty focused on cost effective rules so we have the possibility of seeing sizable fleets again.

There has been more exposure, interest, and coverage for the non sailing public than ever before. ACWS, Liveline, Virtual Eye, stadium venues, and Nascar style racing is a winner. LE had the right idea. Let's hope it carries forward.


Philip
USA #1006
Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #263748
09/13/13 10:26 AM
09/13/13 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by P.M.
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by John Williams
You guys can still feel some national pride - we have more US guys on the ETNZ design team than Oracle has on the boat.


Hah. True that. It's some of the same guys that put a lot of our current boats on paper. I just have my fingers crossed that NZ will stay with some sort of multihull and learn from this iteration. Given their background, they should be pretty focused on cost effective rules so we have the possibility of seeing sizable fleets again.

There has been more exposure, interest, and coverage for the non sailing public than ever before. ACWS, Liveline, Virtual Eye, stadium venues, and Nascar style racing is a winner. LE had the right idea. Let's hope it carries forward.


How many people are at the actual event? No so many, I think the stadium thing is over rated what in my view has been the advance in the media display. Way more people are watching on TV and the internet than will ever be there in person. The graphics and lines on the screen etc make it all the sudden a bit more understandable to the gereal public and now they can show some interest.

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #263749
09/13/13 10:46 AM
09/13/13 10:46 AM
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You can't backwind a jib with a selftacker?
Funny thing is that I have seen Jimmy do this in person at the F18 Worlds where he was crewing for Ashby :-)

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #263751
09/13/13 11:02 AM
09/13/13 11:02 AM
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I'm here in SF now and the crowd on Sunday was massive. Hardly any seats open in the grandstands and thousands lining the beach. The concessions dude I spoke to said that they grossly underestimated how many people would show up and they had to order a lot more beer and food to sell.
The experience here is something you really have to check out for yourself before you poopoo it. Definitely everyone here is loving the whole thing.

Holy hell I forgot to me ton that yesterday at the AC village the checkout line at the big schwag store wrapped around the entire store!

Re: AC72 Oracle Team USA Spaceship has landed [Re: P.M.] #263752
09/13/13 11:26 AM
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"Way more people are watching on TV and the internet than will ever be there in person."

True of any major sport, and basically the whole goal. The money is in the TV ads you can sell. Takes a whole lot of t-shirts (even at SF prices) to make up for that...

Mike

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