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Re: US SAILING MULTIHULL RACING COMMITTEE ANNUAL MEETING 2013 [Re: brucat] #264511
09/21/13 10:50 AM
09/21/13 10:50 AM
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+1


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Re: US SAILING MULTIHULL RACING COMMITTEE ANNUAL MEETING 2013 [Re: brucat] #264514
09/21/13 11:30 AM
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It's always a partnership. US Sailing is us, not them.

But, the racing on the AC course, which everyone (including you JW) raved about, was Liz's idea and she used board-level connections to make it happen.

In the planning stages, I thought it would detract from the event, and am glad I was proven wrong.

As for the MHRC, we see ideas floated, but need people to step up and make them happen.

Mike

Re: US SAILING MULTIHULL RACING COMMITTEE ANNUAL MEETING 2013 [Re: brucat] #264518
09/21/13 12:47 PM
09/21/13 12:47 PM
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I'm going to disagree. Sailing on the AC course was not Liz's idea. Further, it would have happened with or without US Sailing's involvement. You'll recall there were several events in the AC Open, none of which were coordinated by US Sailing.

So, again, what was the "big time" support that created momentum? And what momentum do you see that will carry into any event next year? My view from within the fleet is that if the Alter Cup is sailed on A Cats (or as part of an existing A Cat event), I don't think we'll see many repeat customers from the 2013 fleet. Do you?


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: US SAILING MULTIHULL RACING COMMITTEE ANNUAL MEETING 2013 [Re: brucat] #264520
09/21/13 01:01 PM
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...because you were in the planning meetings?

This is getting old, and not getting us anywhere.

Mike

Re: US SAILING MULTIHULL RACING COMMITTEE ANNUAL MEETING 2013 [Re: brucat] #264529
09/21/13 02:40 PM
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John Williams Offline
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Mike, if you want me to stop disagreeing with you or asking questions, you have but to cease making unsupportable statements. A more introspective approach outside the echo chamber would go far.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: US SAILING MULTIHULL RACING COMMITTEE ANNUAL MEETING 2013 [Re: brucat] #264531
09/21/13 03:24 PM
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John, I was in the meetings. Liz was the champion for the AC course idea. Beyond that, I don't know what else to say.

I ask for ideas, I get blathering about how US Sailing does nothing for us. We are the only ones that can change that. If you prefer to live in the past, and/or insist that nothing can improve, I cannot help you.

Mike

Re: US SAILING MULTIHULL RACING COMMITTEE ANNUAL MEETING 2013 [Re: brucat] #264535
09/21/13 03:30 PM
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Ugh. Mike, I simply asked what the "big time" support was, as it wasn't at all evident on the ground. I also asked what momentum you saw going forward. You've avoided both questions and evolved from "It was Liz's idea" to "Liz thought it was a good idea." None of this has to do with the past. I fully agree that you don't know what else to say, that things can improve, and that you cannot help me. If you insist on making it personal, we can do that.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: US SAILING MULTIHULL RACING COMMITTEE ANNUAL MEETING 2013 [Re: brucat] #264539
09/21/13 03:44 PM
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You've already taken the lead down that path, I'm not following.

The first person I heard this from is Liz. I know you have a history and can't fathom that she could have a good idea, but that's what I know.

US Sailing worked behind the scenes with the host club, and got a lot done with ACEA. No one ever said the volunteers did nothing (actually, you were the first to "compare" the staff to the volunteers, which I think is appalling). But, I'm tired of hearing that US Sailing does nothing from people who were not involved. This is not a criminal case, if you choose to not believe me, I'm OK with that and have better things to do than constantly play defense.

Would you like to join us in FL and help us come up with some new ideas?

Mike

Re: US SAILING MULTIHULL RACING COMMITTEE ANNUAL MEETING 2013 [Re: brucat] #264549
09/21/13 04:37 PM
09/21/13 04:37 PM
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John Williams Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
You've already taken the lead down that path, I'm not following.


laughable

Originally Posted by brucat
The first person I heard this from is Liz. I know you have a history and can't fathom that she could have a good idea, but that's what I know.


More equivocation and parsing. (Bert? Ready to weigh in?) The "you" in that second sentence should be considered plural. You're one short step away from the disgruntled former chairmen club. I may lose on the vote to admit you. In the meantime, hold fast to the fiction that everyone who came before you must somehow be wrong.

Originally Posted by brucat
US Sailing worked behind the scenes with the host club, and got a lot done with ACEA. No one ever said the volunteers did nothing (actually, you were the first to "compare" the staff to the volunteers, which I think is appalling). But, I'm tired of hearing that US Sailing does nothing from people who were not involved. This is not a criminal case, if you choose to not believe me, I'm OK with that and have better things to do than constantly play defense.


Deflections aside, you still haven't said what the "big time" was - I know who took the lead working with Sausalito. US Sailing played a role, but not the bigger role by any measure.

Originally Posted by brucat
Would you like to join us in FL and help us come up with some new ideas?


Your ideas are working so well! I read it on the internets. Biggest Alter Cup evar! You've only got a few more years to go before you can say that you've put more into it than me.

Honestly, here're ideas - Ask people who have attended Alter Cup before and after the format change what they think. There may already be letters sitting in Rhode Island. Don't waste time with surveys of sailors who haven't and won't ever show up. Ask the fleet about eligibility and life jackets. Don't blame sailors for not coming to meetings. Ever. When you're feeling or express resentment of the fleet (particularly if you put it in an email), you've lost the plot.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: US SAILING MULTIHULL RACING COMMITTEE ANNUAL MEETING 2013 [Re: John Williams] #264556
09/21/13 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by John Williams
You're one short step away from the disgruntled former chairmen club. I may lose on the vote to admit you. In the meantime, hold fast to the fiction that everyone who came before you must somehow be wrong.



John, I'm sorry to inform you that there is no vote required for that membership. It's a right of passage. We would have to change the by-laws.


Jake Kohl
Re: US SAILING MULTIHULL RACING COMMITTEE ANNUAL MEETING 2013 [Re: John Williams] #264557
09/21/13 05:19 PM
09/21/13 05:19 PM
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Regardless, we all had a great time at the Alter Cup. A lot of effort went into the Event. Now we need to continue to support the Championship Comm. to make the next Alter Cup even better. And, support your local sailing activities. BTW, Sail Sand Point in Seattle, A US SAILING Center does that for the NW.
www.sailsandpoint.org

Re: US SAILING MULTIHULL RACING COMMITTEE ANNUAL MEETING 2013 [Re: brucat] #264558
09/21/13 05:30 PM
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Talk about dodging! I asked for ideas to move forward, you still want to compare to the past.

I don't know what sort of denial you've lived in for the past two years, but no one was more hopeful that we could retain the old format than I was coming into this. It quickly became obvious that the boats are just too expensive now, regardless of the manufacturer. You mentioned Bert, he was the one who dug up the numbers ($1500-$2000 per F16).

Instead of whining and complaining and saying let's take the money and fold, we tried to come up with something that could work.

Someone else wants this job? I'm fine with that. If someone else is ready to step up and move us forward, that's great. But, forward is leading toward better relations with US Sailing, and not making demands that will never see the light of day.

The whole key to this is knowing where we can make gains, and where we're just going to further push ourselves away from the table.

Mike

Re: US SAILING MULTIHULL RACING COMMITTEE ANNUAL MEETING 2013 [Re: H17cat] #264564
09/21/13 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by H17cat
Regardless, we all had a great time at the Alter Cup. A lot of effort went into the Event. Now we need to continue to support the Championship Comm. to make the next Alter Cup even better. And, support your local sailing activities. BTW, Sail Sand Point in Seattle, A US SAILING Center does that for the NW.
www.sailsandpoint.org


THIS is what we need more of.

Has this been a perfect (or easy) transition over the past few years? Of course not.

But, with people willing to try new things, and to work with (rather than making demands of and threats against) the US Sailing staff and board, we can make real improvements that can benefit all cat sailors.

Mike

Re: US SAILING MULTIHULL RACING COMMITTEE ANNUAL MEETING 2013 [Re: brucat] #264567
09/21/13 08:02 PM
09/21/13 08:02 PM
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Mike, I'm not dodging at all. Never have. My suggestion to you is to reach out to the sailors in the fleet. Not on Catsailor. Pick up a phone. There are ideas, though they might sound familiar. There are certainly opinions about what went well this year and what didn't. And that concerns administration, NOT the efforts of the volunteers in running the event. Caleb is right - fun time had by all, and a lot of effort went into it. As much as it might play against your preconception, I had nothing but gratitude and a helping hand to offer while in Sausalito. To circle back to the original point, you need to be honest, at least with yourself, about who did what. Broad statements like "big time" and "momentum" need to be realistic. The boats are not too expensive to charter if the manufacturer is recognized as the title sponsor. With Rolex out of the picture, that should be on the table.

While you're at it, please make sure you get the balances and expenditures on the various multihull restricted funds and have them reflected in the minutes.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: US SAILING MULTIHULL RACING COMMITTEE ANNUAL MEETING 2013 [Re: Jake] #264569
09/21/13 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Jake
John, I'm sorry to inform you that there is no vote required for that membership. It's a right of passage. We would have to change the by-laws.


Good. Nobody deserves to be left out in the cold.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: US SAILING MULTIHULL RACING COMMITTEE ANNUAL MEETING 2013 [Re: John Williams] #264570
09/21/13 09:52 PM
09/21/13 09:52 PM
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John

Steve Clark responded to a question about the fairness of corporate funding for C class programs. His point of view as both an ex boat builder/ businessman and now leading his own C program.. Was straight forward... Sponsors want a lot for the money they hand over to you and so you wind up running a sailing business for the sponsor dollars. He had no interest in running a business and choose to just design and build his boats on his own dime and time.

Seems to me... the same philosophy holds for the US Multihull championships. Pay your own dime for your personal satisfaction. I don't expect a promoter to be out raising money to subsidize my sailing and to do this for nothing. Its a business.

The volunteers (me for a year) representing sailors in my region and others from around the country have NO interest in running a sailing business for an elite regatta.

(I am still on board with the Corinthian ideals and so I am more interested in giving my time to more charitable causes or events that grow the sport beyond what we have.)

I don't get the expectation that sponsors/promoters/ are part of the US Sailing call to service for growing the sport.

So just for grins, Assuming you have this promoter who will do all of this work gratis... You make this blanket claim....
Quote
The boats are not too expensive to charter if the manufacturer is recognized as the title sponsor.


Do you have a spreadsheet for your proof of concept?

How about a spreadsheet from any other builder in a monohull fleet or any sailing promoter?

Even if you could find sponsors for one year the event must repeat the following year and promoters tend to bail when their spreadsheets turn red.
Volunteers suck at finding and getting yearly donations and running this kind of business (most burn out running their clubs annual regatta much less a business of this magnitude).
Moreover, boat sponsors have strings attached to make the deal work for them which force choices on venues, time of the year, etc etc.
The major issue is one of financial and legal control with promoters... eg Could you have imagined US Sailing supervising Mike Worrel?... The lawsuits aimed at US Sailing would have been epic!

Even More business issues.... If you are US Sailing.... why would you want a group asking the same sponsors for a US championship in catamarans and then having to ask again for your Olympic catamaran program? (That is why they control the sponsor deals)

Final point is simply one of philosophy.... interest by the rank and file in the old format of area winners and 10 petitions in many areas of the country had gone to zero as evidenced by the turnout at qualifiers.

What is the argument for taking any more then the required draw of the endowment money and running anything other then an open event? The open and rotating discipline format serves more sailors in the country. At best, I could see merit in limiting an event to 20 teams by resume (which would still be a huge one design turnout in the USA in 2013).

Perhaps great answers to these issues could persuade the MHC to submit a proposal to the independent and separate championship committee to make changes...again.

I would vote to finish the cycle... spin, sloop, single hander (2014) before changing the game.

Last edited by Mark Schneider; 09/21/13 09:57 PM.

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Re: US SAILING MULTIHULL RACING COMMITTEE ANNUAL MEETING 2013 [Re: Mark Schneider] #264571
09/21/13 10:29 PM
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Good points Mark, agree.

Re: US SAILING MULTIHULL RACING COMMITTEE ANNUAL MEETING 2013 [Re: Mark Schneider] #264573
09/21/13 11:33 PM
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Mark, it isn't a proof of concept - it was practice. We gave significant recognition to the manufacturers for years, and they provided boats at a sharply discounted charter fee. The fee was going up, but was still 50% of market value or less. Boats were put into a region where manufacturers or dealers or fleets felt they would sell, and they did before the end of the event with only one or two years as exceptions. It was a good relationship, and the goal wasn't elitism - it was putting new boats in an area where fleet growth was happening. We didn't dictate what the boat would be - we asked what the builders wanted to sell. Because the event wasn't about the boat. It was about equal platforms and a rotation system that put each team on each boat at some point in the event. Ten area representatives, several class champions and three petitions - again, not solely for the elite, but still prestigious. And not for the sole purpose of selling boats, but to grow fleets and attract multihullers to the organization irrespective of class affiliation. I didn't come up with any of this, so there's no ego involved.

No need to cover the history again, is there? Things changed, but only because (IMO) the volunteers lost control. Certainly there had been diminished interest in Area events, but over half of them were still happening, particularly where there were spark plugs. Contrast this with zero at present. Area events generated members. Now that US Sailing membership isn't required to sail the championship, there is a net loss of members. Just join your sailing federation (PUR or FRA, for example), bring your CE vest, and sail on. This year, international sailors at least joined US Sailing in the spirit of the event, but we're still undeniably net loss.

I understand the situation - the process has resulted in what we have now, and it has never been my intention to malign the people who show up, wave flags, blow horns and carry beach wheels. I simply do not accept the "you can't do that" that we hear now from the organization that should be asking us how it should be done. We did do that, you and me and many who frequent this forum. In service to sailors. And it was working. But I accept my views are out of step with the current volunteers' outlook, who, as you've pointed out, will spin, sloop and single-hander. And we'll see where we land. Make me wrong and I'll be happy. In the meantime, I doubt I can resist asking for clarification, for example, when someone posts a declarative that doesn't seem to fit the facts.

TL:DR?


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: US SAILING MULTIHULL RACING COMMITTEE ANNUAL MEETING 2013 [Re: John Williams] #264585
09/22/13 01:00 PM
09/22/13 01:00 PM
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Mark Schneider Offline
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John
Quote
not solely for the elite,


what do you define as "not solely"...
That is EXACTLY the system Area Winners, Class champions and invitations (to the top sailors who compete at nationals).

The trend of multihull sailors supporting this championship was down for years... With about 50 teams and just over half the Areas participating... I judge it as a failure. YMMV of course.

The core issue is Why do we want an elite regatta like this anyway?

We like the rest of the US Sailing OD classes have our NA's and Nationals. They are open!

US Sailing already runs a champion of champions invitation only regatta where multihull class NA winners can compete.

And.... We HAVE an elite multihull championship already... it is called the Olympics.... runs every 4 years. Better then that... The US slot is an OPEN competition... show up and win the selection events and you represent the US. No requirements to win anything or be selected by a committee to compete.

So Why do we need an elite by invitation only event that has all of these competition strings attached to pretend that we are sorting the best US multihull sailors? Moreover, why should we take the efforts of a large number of volunteers and the endowment and focus it on this small "not solely elite" group of the multihull racing community sailing boats that the builders want to market? (of course if as you suggest and you ask the people who have raced the event in the past... they will say they loved it.. (but they would not be sloop or singlehanded sailors) (who would not enjoy the sponsorship and endowment money for their use!)

I judged that the US Sailing championship should be OPEN and not Elite... just like the other championships in the country.

Bottom line... the premise that the old format attracted sailors to the organization was failing. The elite regatta format appeals to a select few and did not serve the entire sailing community (see the trends). ... Sailors felt like it was extortion to go to a local regatta run by the same volunteers that ran last weeks regatta. They voted with their feet.

There are fundamental problems with your basic and historical premise. Moreover, I don't believe that you can come up with a spreadsheet for the environment we now live in, much less convince a builder to put marketing money in the game based on your spreadsheet. (Yes times change... you do need a proof of concept. The notion that volunteers were loosing control is complete crap! There were votes by lots of people. No money was left on the table in the year that I served on the C committee.


So, where we are now is that the MHC supported the Championship Committee implementing the following principles.
Move the event around the country.
Serve the needs of all the mulithull sailors (sloop classes. spinnaker Classes and Singlehanders)
Use the endowment money to sponsor race clinics for all interested sailors in an effort to grow interest and skills in cat racing.

The old system had failed because of the business model and lack of rank and file support for qualifiers. The current system could fail if one design classes don't support their turn at the championship within their championship program.








crac.sailregattas.com
Re: US SAILING MULTIHULL RACING COMMITTEE ANNUAL MEETING 2013 [Re: brucat] #264586
09/22/13 01:21 PM
09/22/13 01:21 PM
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John Williams Offline
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You've successfully convinced yourself. Must have missed you at the last dozen or so. This all holds up if you accept the application of the terminology of "failure" and "elite," which I don't. And if you're merely a survey-taking non-participant, you simply cannot have an informed opinion. If the event was viewed by the participants as successful, then the task is to administer to that success and build on it. We got great mileage from that approach.

Again, simply ask sailors who have participated in events before and after the changes made what they liked and didn't like... there are plenty of non-elites to choose from. This will provide you with data from the actual people who pay money and show up. Then give them what they want.

The race clinic was awesome this year. :-/

Take a minute to plot participants on a map - we always found that to be a good measure of reach.

You guys asked for suggestions - would it be better if these all came from someone not named John Williams?


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
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