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Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #272019
04/30/14 02:28 PM
04/30/14 02:28 PM
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mikekrantz Offline
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Jake, i was talking about the A-class rules...

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #272020
04/30/14 02:38 PM
04/30/14 02:38 PM
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Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: brucat] #272021
04/30/14 02:55 PM
04/30/14 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by brucat
Just observing patterns. Don't worry, I usually triple up on the Midol before reading your stuff.

Mike


I hope you don't jump to conclusions like that when you are on a protest committee. If you take someone mentioning what class boat you sail as an insult, you may want to re-examine your thought process or switch classes if you feel that way about it.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #272022
04/30/14 03:38 PM
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Watch it, I'm running low on Midol...

Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: mikekrantz] #272023
04/30/14 03:43 PM
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There has to be more to the measurer's interpretation? The overall length... is measured at the extremities of the hulls.

Is there something that trumps D.3.1 of the ERS, which specifically states to exclude fittings when measuring hull length?

http://www.sailing.org/documents/equipmentrules/index.php

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 04/30/14 03:53 PM.
Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #272024
04/30/14 03:51 PM
04/30/14 03:51 PM
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they have an 18' jig that they slide down the bow and transom. If it doesn't fit, you are oversize. I saw more than one person, sanding a couple of mm of gelcoat off the bow to make the jig fit.

Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #272025
04/30/14 03:53 PM
04/30/14 03:53 PM
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Same with the 1.5m rule on the appendages. Several people had to sand the inside of the "L" foils to get the necessary clearance. Also guys with big "T" foil rudders had to sand the outer edges to keep it within the width limit.

Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #272026
04/30/14 03:56 PM
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See my edits above. Is there something in the class procedures that says fittings must fit in the jig?

Seems counter to ERS, which would be fine if documented and approved (although class procedures don't typically carry the weight of class rules).

Mike

Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #272027
04/30/14 04:02 PM
04/30/14 04:02 PM
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The fittings are excluded from the hull measurement.

Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #272030
04/30/14 04:24 PM
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OK, so why did the foot straps need to be moved?

Mike

Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: brucat] #272032
04/30/14 05:02 PM
04/30/14 05:02 PM
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I think if you take this case to the point where someone is mounting a 5' bar to the hull pointing straight aft and trapezing off that, then it becomes part of the hull. A foot strap isn't giving you any more righting leverage than you had before and it's not changing the aerodynamics or hydrodynamics of the hull in a positive way. Obviously, when defining the outer dimensions of the hull the intent is to limit the waterline and available righting leverage (particularly when they start getting into the athwart ship dimensions of the rudder appendage). The footstrap doesn't increase any of these performance characteristics and is, largely, a safety device.

Now, you could argue that having a little extra ability to prevent peter-panning down the side of the hull can improve performance but foot straps are not prohibitively expensive and are easily available to all. People will be trapezing off the corner of their boat whether or not a foot strap is there - should they not increase their safety just a little? It just doesn't make sense to consider that as part of the hull in either case.


Jake Kohl
Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Jake] #272033
04/30/14 05:29 PM
04/30/14 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Jake
I think if you take this case to the point where someone is mounting a 5' bar to the hull pointing straight aft and trapezing off that, then it becomes part of the hull. A foot strap isn't giving you any more righting leverage than you had before and it's not changing the aerodynamics or hydrodynamics of the hull in a positive way. Obviously, when defining the outer dimensions of the hull the intent is to limit the waterline and available righting leverage (particularly when they start getting into the athwart ship dimensions of the rudder appendage). The footstrap doesn't increase any of these performance characteristics and is, largely, a safety device.

Now, you could argue that having a little extra ability to prevent peter-panning down the side of the hull can improve performance but foot straps are not prohibitively expensive and are easily available to all. People will be trapezing off the corner of their boat whether or not a foot strap is there - should they not increase their safety just a little? It just doesn't make sense to consider that as part of the hull in either case.


You DO increase your righting and anti-pitching moment by moving your footstrap to one tab on the transom. If not why did you ( anyone) do it? You could have just as easily mounted it with both tabs on the shear and lost that extra 2 or 3". Just like Mike's Bungee /tramp example. Rules are rules rather you break them a little or alot.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #272034
04/30/14 08:40 PM
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I was thinking along those lines (moving leverage more to the rear), but there's nothing technically outlawing that (other than loopholes, I guess).

Mike

Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: brucat] #272036
04/30/14 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by brucat
I was thinking along those lines (moving leverage more to the rear), but there's nothing technically outlawing that (other than loopholes, I guess).

Mike


They also will give you a problem if the footstrap sticks out past max beam . That's why most of them you see at a weigh in are smashed flat.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #272038
04/30/14 09:40 PM
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I still don't see the problem. Don't get me wrong, I believe your story, I just still don't see this as something that is illegal. It's not like having the foot strap would get you further away from the hull (off the sides).

EDIT: On a (somewhat) related note, I don't understand why RRS 49 (lifelines) doesn't include a clause that turns it off for boats with trapezes. It already allows hiking straps and stiffeners (battens in your pants). There are more than enough boats that use them (not just cats), that it makes no sense to force class rules to change this. (I guess this is a question for the Rules Committee...)

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 04/30/14 09:46 PM.
Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #272039
04/30/14 09:51 PM
04/30/14 09:51 PM
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You'd have to ask the IACA technical committee. Can't help you with why they do what they do,but it's the rules we (The A class) have to play by and that's good enough for me, in this instance.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #272041
04/30/14 10:24 PM
04/30/14 10:24 PM
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I agree, so long as it's transparent. I can definitely see it being a potential slippery slope, along the lines of what Jake said above.

Mike

Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Jake] #272045
05/01/14 01:00 AM
05/01/14 01:00 AM
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Victoria, Australia
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Originally Posted by Jake
make sure they're loose enough that you can get your foot out of sideways but tight enough that you can't get your upper ankle shoved into it. You shouldn't look at a footstrap as a way to make your foot captive (easy to keep your foot in but hard to get it out)...look at it as something that you still have to use your foot muscles to hang into. If you ever feel the need to either reach down to open it up for your foot or if you have to wiggle your foot into it, you're doing it wrong.


I think that sums it up entirely. I have mine set so I can't get my foot in there much past my toe and have the start of the ball of my foot in there at most which means it's actually quite easy to fall out but I have to make sure my foot stays in. All in all it looks like every sailors nightmare (I regularly race against the poor girl in question) and the only thing worse would have been for the boat to fall over whilst she was still trapped shocked

Originally Posted by northsea junkie
I asked Dazz, who started this thread and broke his foot, after the rather low trapeze-hook position.

I asked that because when sailing at sea and using the hookposition from the vid that is impossible. You are hit from the cat in the first wave you meet.

So, for me using a low hookposition, looks more something for flatwater sailing. Nevertheless I keep wondering why you want to chose for such a low position as is seen on the vid.
I mean he was hanging in an angle of more than 90 degrees to the hull.

Is that still usefull?? 90 degrees gives the most leverage, doesn't it. And even so, a footstrap is supposed to keep you from being pulled forward and not from pushed backward. So if there is a serious risk for that last, do not ever use the footstrap,


I think she was trying to get her weight all the way back and it was more a combination of boat stopping (nosedive) and then rapid acceleration combined with a wave as it recovered. Whilst that was shot overseas, the waves look similar to what she sails week in week out at home. Unfortunately our home waters are renown for a short sharp relatively big chop which can make getting boats down wind a challenge at times.

Last edited by C2 Mike; 05/01/14 01:06 AM.
Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #272050
05/01/14 07:51 AM
05/01/14 07:51 AM
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Petten Netherlands
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Okay Mike, I'm clear now with the vid from Dazz; it's about James and Julia and she broke her foot (I hope I'm excused for my absentmindedness; age you know).

And I don't want to blame Julia.

But it all has to do with the different mindset from competition sailors and recreational sailors like me.

I personally would never search in catsailing the extremes and take risks, just for winning. So, going for the last inch of leverage with a footstrap on a discutable place (don't fall over me please) and hanging on a wire adjustment which is in fact a bit too long for the circumstances, is a no-go for me.

I do take risks but most of the times calculated and always have to do with trying to sail in rough(er) conditions.

So when we talk about footstraps on cats ,my point is that they are only an expediŽnt, an aid, for keeping your balance.
And that's why, in my opinion, the cathull by its form should give you a-priori a comfortable, safe and solid stance hanging on the wire. And footstraps can and should extend this solid stance for rougher conditions/or more competitive conditions.

But only that and in safe enough way.

Last edited by northsea junkie; 05/01/14 07:59 AM.

ronald
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hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #272052
05/01/14 08:11 AM
05/01/14 08:11 AM
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OK...so, hypothetical time. What if the footstraps were mounted to the rudder heads? The rudder is excluded from the hull measurement.

I know, not terribly practical but it COULD be done. I think this illustrates the silliness of including a footstrap as part of "the hull".


Jake Kohl
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